Book Review:

The Dichotomy

By Jocko Willink & Leif Babin

Book Review: The Dichotomy Of Leadership
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Retired U.S. Navy SEAL Officer
Jocko is a retired U.S. Navy SEAL officer, co-author of the #1 New York Times bestseller Extreme Ownership: How U.S. Navy SEALs Lead and Win, host of the top-rated Jocko Podcast, and co-founder of Echelon Front.
By Jocko Willink & Leif Babin

The Dichotomy Of Leadership

Every leader must be ready and willing to take charge, to make hard, crucial calls for the good of the team and the mission. Something much more difficult to understand is that, in order to be a good leader, one must also be a good follower. This is a dichotomy; a Dichotomy of Leadership. It is, as authors Jocko Willink and Leif Babin explained in their bestselling first book Extreme Ownership, “Simple, Not Easy.” Now, in The Dichotomy of Leadership, the authors explain the power inherent in the recognition of the fine line that leaders must walk, balancing between two seemingly opposite inclinations. It is with the knowledge and understanding of this balance that a leader can most effectively lead, accomplish the mission and achieve the goal of every leader and every team: Victory. Using examples from the authors' combat and training experience in the SEAL Teams and then showing how each lesson applies to business and in life, Willink and Babin reveal how the use of seemingly opposite principles—leading and following, focusing and detaching, being both aggressive and prudent—require skill, awareness, understanding, and dexterity; all attributes that can be honed. These dichotomies are inherent in many of the concepts introduced in Extreme Ownership, and integral to their proper implementation and effectiveness.

Retired U.S. Navy SEAL Officer
Leif Babin is a former U.S. Navy SEAL officer, co-author of #1 New York Times bestseller Extreme Ownership: How U.S. Navy SEALs Lead and Win, and co-founder of Echelon Front, serving as President/COO.

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Speaker 1: 00:00:05 Welcome to social community and show where it's our good help you learn, grow and transform in person who might've become welcome to episode 50 we made it. Thank you. Whether this is your first 20th or 50 episode, we appreciate you being here. Our mission continues to be, you know, providing valuable information, insights to help you continue your journey to learn, grow and transform. We look forward to another 50 episodes having you folks, having you folks along for the ride as we continue to get better and to get you to explore topics, to help not only us but you guys on your journey to a better, more fulfilling life. Today we're doing a book review of leadership by Jocko Willink and Leif Babin. Quick, quick summary of the book. Every leader must be ready and willing to take charge. To me, card critical calls for the good of the team.

Speaker 1: 00:00:56 That mission, something much more difficult to understand is that in order to be a good leader, one must also be a good follower. This is a dichotomy. Dichotomy of leadership is as authors, Jocko Willink and Leif Babin explaining her bestselling first book, extreme ownership, simple, not easy now, and then dichotomy of leadership. The authors explain the power inherent in the recognition of the first line leaders that must walk balancing between two simply opposing inclinations. It is that it is with the knowledge and understanding of this balance that a leader can most effectively lead accomplished the mission and achieve the goal of every leader in every team victory. Using examples from the author's combat and training experience in the seal teams and then showing how each lesson applies to business and life. Lincoln and Babin, we reveal how the use of the seemingly opposite principals leading and following focusing in detaching, being both aggressive and prudent requires skills, awareness and understanding and [inaudible] all attributes, attributes that can be honed.

Speaker 1: 00:02:00 These dichotomies are inherent in many of the concepts. Introducing the extreme ownership and integral to the proper implementation and effectiveness. A little bit about Jocko. Jocko is retired us navy seal officer. He's a Co author of the New York [inaudible] New York Times bestseller, Shreem ownership, how u s navy seals lead and win. He's also the host of the top rated Jocko podcast and the cofounder of Echelon Front. Uh, Leif Babin also is a former US navy seal officer. The other coauthor of extreme ownership and the cofounder of echelon front serving currently has a president and see, oh, oh. So this, this is the follow on book two, uh, extreme ownership. Um, and in, in the book it does say they do state in the beginning, you don't need to read the first one and ransom. You never read the first one. Do you concur with that or why? Yeah, I do actually.

Speaker 1: 00:02:50 I kind of concur with that, that this book could be a standalone. I didn't read a single page off the first one and I kinda just picked up from where they go on. I guess this book kind of, I guess, states the weaknesses of the first book. I'm not sure. Like for me, uh, you know, now that I've read this book, I kind of don't want to read the first book. Maybe, I don't know if that's kind of your take on it. Maybe, I mean maybe they talked a little bit more detailed about their strategies or maybe they talked a little bit more in detail. Um, maybe some of the examples they gave for better, I dunno, what did you, did you get them? I read both. And the way I, I view it is this is just an extrapolation on maybe some oversimplifications or some, some, some extremes that they found between the two Rio, you know, being on one side or the other of each of their core principles.

Speaker 1: 00:03:51 But were there any things in the book, the first book that we're not in this book? Not that I recall. Okay. Okay. I think because of the, the core message is the same in both books. So the stories are different. There's different stories in each book. Um, this book focuses more on the balancing of things versus the first book probably focuses more on I'm the leader, I need to own everything and I need to, you know, I need to take charge of that. I don't, I don't know. That's just what, that's what I get for this. Reading this book alone. Um, I definitely, the first book introduces the concept of extreme ownership. Um, each of the combat laws that they, that they, they base everything on. Uh, it goes into I think a lot more detail in each of the different things versus versus this book.

Speaker 1: 00:04:45 I don't think Mrs much detail it just extrapolates on these things. It gives you, you had a war story, they give you the principle of that, that story and then a business example that they have showing that the out of balance of the principal and then what they did to bring the principal back into balance. They don't do that in the first book, I guess. Not that I recall. It's just been a while since I read the first one. They just, they just, it's similar, similar outlie a war story and then, and then, uh, uh, um, a business example. But, um, it's more than extreme ownership. Right? It's more based on extreme ownership. And then at the time, I think from my perspective, the balance was implied. It was implied that you don't be uneasy. You don't be on the, you know the end of the dumbbell per se. You know what I'm saying? You got to stay in the center versus throughout the years since the book was published in the continuousness worked with businesses, they found that people were on the ends of the dumbbell per se. You have to wait a minute. I need to be in the middle of a Dumbbell, not on ends. Okay. Yeah, but again, that's why I was saying they reading this book stand alone. It kind of makes me don't want to read the first one, so I don't know. If you like hardcore

Speaker 2: 00:05:57 navy seal stuffs, then maybe you should read the first book first because probably in enjoy the first book and then read this one and enjoy it just as well. My experience experiences, I read this book so I know the flaws on the first book and I guess being older than I am, why would I go and read all the book? I don't know. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 00:06:18 Well I think from my perspective, I would recommend reading both books. I don't care what order you do it in, I don't think that matters per se. But what why I look at it is it's just another opportunity to learn these rules and laws, another opportunity to reread in a sense these different things that, um, help you towards mastery of these different things that a greater understanding. That's the way I look at it.

Speaker 2: 00:06:41 So

Speaker 3: 00:06:42 I say read both that way. You have two opportunities at, at maybe let's say, you know, four stories per per lesson instead of maybe just two stories from neither per lesson, more examples, maybe more relatable examples in one book versus the other things that you are into or not. I Dunno, I'm biased maybe about it. I don't know. That's what I think about it.

Speaker 2: 00:07:00 Nice. Nice. Okay. So I like to highlight, I guess the four core

Speaker 3: 00:07:05 competencies, I guess you want to say. The pillars of they use, it's called the laws of combat. So this is where they kind of draw everything from, um, covering, move simple or, or maybe in another term, kiss, keep it simple, uh, prioritize and execute. And in decentralized command, that's where they base everything from. So if you can, you can, uh, understand each of those things. You can really extrapolate them into different areas and say like, where do I need this? You know, is this a cover move type of situation? Is this, you know, do I need to prioritize the to do list? You know, am I taking on too much? So I need to decentralize things and empower others. That's where they come from. And a book is broken up into three different sections. So balancing people, balancing the mission and then balancing yourself.

Speaker 2: 00:07:49 So, and then in each, each one, like in balancing people, like they'll give examples, I'll give like a war story than a business story. And then all, all of those stories, I think there's 12, 12 chapters and all in the book. So the first four chapters will be about balancing people. Then the next word, the next floor after that will be above the mission. And then balancing yourself and I, I dunno, I think this book actually goes to together pretty well. So

Speaker 3: 00:08:16 yeah, it does. They do a really, the, the flow is the same in the first book. They do a really good job at the way they write, the way they think, the way they present things from step one to 12 whatever you want to call it. In each of these, they do a really good job of delineating all that and building upon each thing builds and builds and builds and you don't get lost or not a lot of fluff.

Speaker 2: 00:08:37 Yeah, no, definitely. I definitely love the way they piece together their stories and relate them to civilian experience and business business experience. More to say. Yeah, I mean they just have some of the cool things in this book that I just like their voices do. They just, they sounded hard like I've seen worse. I have no idea what they look like, but it was listening to them. I was like, damn, this dude sounded hard. Like

Speaker 3: 00:09:02 I've got that. I guess I'm going to say stereotypical special forces type, you know, elite guy. It's good. Get somebody to Sarah. It's like, whoa. All right. John [inaudible] was a pretty big guy too.

Speaker 2: 00:09:14 Yeah, that's just exactly like what they sound like, you know? And like even the beginning of the book, he's like, prepare to get some, I was like, that's the way he says it. You know? And they're like, I know. So this was an ongoing joke. It's like the more nonchalant and casual you could say, you know, like a flight attended announcing overhead like these guys do.

Speaker 3: 00:09:36 Yeah. They've got their own fun humor and stuff in there. What are some other things that you really stood out about this book for you?

Speaker 2: 00:09:42 Um, I guess for me, I guess the whole, like I liked the confidentiality part of mounting. Obviously in this book they reveal information about either missions they were on or training exercises that they had done, but like a variety if they get gold, you know? And I guess maybe that just adds to their hardness and all that. It's just like, you know, yeah, we, we pass the book through the Pentagon or through whatever circumstances to make sure that no classified information was given out and all that kind of stuff. And even the seriousness they take into like the names of the seal members. Like you know, we only release the names of like the fall in, you know, or seals that are out there in the public eye already. And I, you know, I just, I fully fully respect that. I guess my, my brother and my, you know, my family members are in the military, so I guess I just kind of take that to heart and though that, yeah, they're sharing information but they are trying their best to protect the people who are out there now and doing that stuff. So I kind of really appreciate that. And like that about bought the boat too. Yeah, that was nice. But the level of

Speaker 3: 00:10:53 Oh, consideration and went to, cause like we were saying earlier when we were chatting offline, easy, you know, flexed and say, look at these people I work with, look at all these things I did and I'm like, and you know, pretty broad, whatever cloud or something to themselves. And they're like, no, it's not about that. And then not about the pulling. These big names are pulling these big

Speaker 2: 00:11:09 brands that you're right. And even the business people, they didn't really sending any of the business information who they, you know, they kept all of that very confidential and you know, that's, that's really awesome. Um, I don't know anything you liked about the book? I guess

Speaker 3: 00:11:24 reading the Audio Book, which is my preferred way of reading it. It, they did and it's rare in audio books. I have sound effects. And then they, they, they did, they did bombs dropping. They did machine gun, Fire Mans and day I was, I was driving, uh, I don't have my windows down and I didn't expect it and I was driving us.

Speaker 2: 00:11:43 Wow. Oh Man. I was like, God Dang it now, but just, you know, I guess just the effect that you can get from an audio book that you can't get from actually sitting down and reading a book. You know what I mean? Like you don't just, you don't just hear the narrator be like, and there were live gunfire overhead. And I mean, they definitely do get into some point. And explain it and talk about it. But it's different. It's like, it's like they don't say that. You just hear the fire pop up as shots rained out. Like as like you actually hear what they sound like. Cool.

Speaker 1: 00:12:20 Cause that was a good part. I know. Listen to his podcasts. He was, he was talking about that the audio book people or whatever, they don't really like that. They don't like putting this on effects in, but they wanted to make sure he got, got that affected. But does it bring some nice visceral in this to the book and it brings a book really much more to life and you just hear this stuff and it catches you off guard too. It's just like, Whoa, what's happening here? I like, I enjoy it. I like it. I wish more audio books had those kinds of sound effects and different things too.

Speaker 2: 00:12:48 Know Subtle, those subtle differences make the audio book experience that much more. I agree. Yes,

Speaker 1: 00:12:54 absolutely. So, um, you want to get into some of the key stories that we liked and in his book and then, or you want to, anything else you want to stop?

Speaker 2: 00:13:01 Oh yeah, definitely, definitely. I guess we can get into the reviewing part, I guess enough, enough about the hi, I'm sorry for the first 10 minutes of what's in the chapters I guess. So I guess we'll go through a breakdown. This is kinda going to probably be a longer episode than most of you are. Remember, we haven't actually prepped it out in time that aisle, but um, you know, we have a lot of, more than our, I guess our standard episode times been like 45 minutes or so. Just a heads up. This may be a little bit longer than that. Um, and in, in doing this, we didn't want to really give away every single thing the offer. Um, I don't think I'm doing these stories justice because the way they are put together in the book are just so awesome. I'm really getting that experience.

Speaker 2: 00:13:49 Like I said, with all the additional sound effects, the voices of these of these seals, like you can just like, that's a far better experience than what we're doing here. Sorry, I can't live up to that. But you know, we did pick a few stories here and there are I guess more than, uh, more than a handful that we want to get to that I think that will actually bring to light the good qualities of this book. And then from there you can go and catch up and read up on many more of the other stores that are in there. So yeah. So I like that.

Speaker 1: 00:14:24 So I guess, uh, the first story is, is the business version in chapter one about the mining operation that was, um, that was just one that, I mean, just start the book off with this guy. It's just like, what a great way to start the business, especially the business portion of that story.

Speaker 2: 00:14:41 Awesome. Yay. Yeah. So I guess we'll was, how's the story going? I guess he was hired to how bright, right? Yeah.

Speaker 1: 00:14:48 I guess the Corporate People Hydroco go

Speaker 3: 00:14:52 down to this mining operation and he, soon as he gets there, he's like, you know, the, the Boston charters or here's some other jackass, doesn't know shit about mind. He said, you can tell me how to do my job as a buyer that comes in and somebody, you know, I guess he was losing money on it. They had to shut down the mine for whatever reason. And then all, you know, all these people came over and he just really kind of, it's just so awesome with all the experiences, especially Jocko has had, um, you know, being, being, being a commander, he, I guess he was enlisted seal then you went to become an officer and stuff. So he's got a really broad way of relating to people and getting down and dirty and, and then he just broke it down for his guy. I'm like, listen man, like who else is there better to care for these people? Didn't you like, it could be, if you're, if you're going to continue to fuck up, you're gonna consistently run this minds into the ground. They, we're going to have, the corporate guys are going to bring in somebody else and replace you and there's going to let guys go and I got to fire a bunch of people. It's like, so are you really taking care of these guys or are you, are you being selfish about it? And not looking out for the whole good of everybody.

Speaker 2: 00:15:51 And I could tell, I guess from the way that the story was unfolding, you'd like jock was like having a conversation with this guy and this guy that was just definitely like given Jocko to cold shoulder, you know, he's like, he's like, oh, these people work hard. Jockos like, yeah, I can tell from just watching them by a few minutes like that. They work hard and he's like, you only watched it for a few minutes. You don't know who they are. And Jack was like, Whoa, Whoa, whoa. He's like, take him back. Look man. Like is this, you know, could definitely tell that this manager had a great passion and great love, not only for the mining industry, but for the people that worked in it for so long. Um, and I think it finally took juggle, like Jocko actually they had to like stop being the nice guy.

Speaker 2: 00:16:35 He's like, yeah. He says, no, I really do understand. And then like, you know, he's like, I may not be dealing with the people in the mining industry, but I understand about putting people's lives on the line to accomplish the mission. And like that when you started going down that rabbit hole, he's like, look, I've been a seal leader. I put my men, my brothers, my family, all align or risk their lives to accomplish the mission. Like I know what that's about. Then the guy finally like, yeah, he finally understood me. He finally was listening to me for the first time. We could get that relation in there. And that was, I don't know, to meet, I was kind of like heartfelt. I was like, Ooh. I was like, ah.

Speaker 3: 00:17:13 I know. It's like that people's lives are not aligned. Not maybe not jobs, but actual lives. Yeah. And I think that's, that's a good thing about Jocko to, from my perspective of him, you know, he's able to, to relate these things. Like, I don't know what it's like to be a farmer, but I know it's like to be in a farm with navy seals and guy shooting all around you. So I think we can call them and find some common ground here. And he's able to, to kind of diffuse things and become more relatable. And not just this corporate consulting has, comes down and doesn't know what the FT is talking about to show you how to run your job site or whatever it is.

Speaker 2: 00:17:47 Yeah. And it just, it just kind of like, you know, and then just breaking that common ground. Um, Jack was also able to be like, look, he says, look, you guys closed one mine. How many, you know, how many jobs did you save from that first mine against as a goal, 147 and we kind of split them up. And then he's like, well, how many other people do you have in all the other minds? And he's like, 600 sold. Let me get the strays a cure. You're risking the jobs of 600 people to save the lives of 147 p for anyone. That's kind of when it struck a nerve with that guy. He's like, yeah,

Speaker 1: 00:18:26 yeah. And he's like, and if you keep on this path, we're gonna bring somebody in who doesn't care about those 600 jobs. Yeah, I like how he did that too. Yeah. Yeah. Cause you can kind of pulled the guys at Harvard, he's like, listen, if you care about these guys truly cared about these guys that you've got to think about them as a whole, not, you know, as you know, one individual, one individual, you know, you can't sacrifice the whole ship. You know, just for one guy. And it was really nice how he related to it. And then, and then the manager got it and he's like, well that's trimmed on it. Oh he, I mean he went, I'm not even trimming on that many people. What? I think he ended up getting 80 people go. Right. So there you go. So most of those guys kept their job that came over that really could have easily all of all been terminated.

Speaker 2: 00:19:06 Yeah. And then, you know, he let 80 people go. The mining operation went back into the black, you know, the managers, they're like, what he had to do, right. Obviously cared about every single person there, which is so hard to do. And you know what I mean? But I Jocko put a, you know, great. And then this quote is like, you know, he's like, you have to, you know, um, care about the people but still be able to accomplish the mission. And sometimes there are unavoidable consequences for the troops that are on that machine and failing to balance those two opposing goals would result in your failure to do either of them. I was like, I was like, Ooh. I was like, that's Kinda harsh there, Huh?

Speaker 1: 00:19:53 Yeah. That's tough. I've been in companies where it was like that and it's like you're dragging down the whole ship to make a few hearts, you know, a few hard decisions. It's like you're sacrificing all of us, this whole company, everything is here. So you don't lay off 10 guys or cut costs or something that here, there I, you know, and as stressful as the employee, like you're just everyday like is my paycheck and I be cashable like are we going to have work tomorrow? Like if we keep going down this road like [inaudible] especially, I think he did it talks about a lot in the first book when you're not transparent, you know, telling you that your, your employees or your, your, the people that you're leading, what's happening, what's going on. It's just beer and it's rumor mill starts and I've been around that, you know, especially during the recession was eat or whatever.

Speaker 1: 00:20:40 And it's like this, this is rumor mill because the people at the top, they don't know what's going on. They're panicked and they're not talking down and talk to anybody and this sphere like, do I come to work tomorrow? Ling is anything that happened or you know, do I waste my time driving in? Like, or, or what? So yeah, breaking that down and getting back. That's, it takes a special, sorry. Sorry for those of you, I've just been a little sick this past few days, but anyway, we're going to accomplish the mission and get through it. But yeah. Um, and it just, it just takes a special kind of person to understand that dichotomy, right. Of like jeopardizing the mission versus knowing when to, to let go. Like it's tough. Yeah. Especially when you get in the, that sunk cost fallacy. We were like, all this time and money and effort has been put into us like we've got to keep going cause we've already, we've already done all this stuff and it's like versus not money that time is gone already. Like we can't continue doing this as we go forward. It's just going to be more of the same knowing when to cut your losses and that's super hard. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 00:21:46 And it's one of your favorite stories. I know that for sure after five, uh, train hard but train smart wall is down.

Speaker 2: 00:21:56 Yeah. So this is one of my stories that I just kind of want to share and talk a little bit about. Uh, what I guess the story opens up there in hostile territory, explosions all around incoming browse from multiple directions. Again, like in the audio book, like you hear it, it's like, oh, it's so awesome. Um, but you know, they're pinned down by enemy fire. One of their home is inoperable and then all of a sudden you hear over the radio, all Big Walt is down Big Walt is down. And it's like, oh, like at that moment, like with every, you know, of just the audio sounds and everything being excluded again, I'm sorry I'm not doing it justice, but um, you know, you can kind of again feel your heart tell. It's like, damn, you're on a team. And Big Walter was like, he was the guy that made all the tough calls and they're rallied the troops in the thick of the fight.

Speaker 2: 00:22:43 Like this was your, this is your gear, go to guy and now he's done. And like you're in, you're in basically the shit house, right? Everything, chaos all around you. And the second command, right lpls was on there as like, he's trying to get things over their radio. Where is everybody? Let's regroup. And like nobody's answering on the radio. Nobody's moving. Nobody's making any type of calls whatsoever just to enemies are making movements and just making the situation even worse by the minute, like a psych. Whoa. He could like feel the tension like a building up there. And then like even like some of the younger guys like come on man, somebody make a call here. Somebody we need to do something. Somebody make a call here. And it's like, aw, like you feel it. And then like, sorry, spoiler alert. But luckily this was just a training exercise actually like in real battle, a real combat situation.

Speaker 2: 00:23:38 Like thank goodness. Right? Because that just sounds like something that's headed for a catastrophe, you know? And it's like there were no live fire. They did use grenade simulators though, which was kind of crazy. Those are fun. And then from there, um, you know, they had paintball rounds instead of live fire. But still, I mean even paint ball, I was like, you get welts and stuff from those. Not about saying it's anything like taking a real bullet, but those have applied pressure to it as well. So you know, with all of that going down, um, you know, um, they kind of, I guess at that point, after they explain it's a training exercise to kind of just back the story up a little bit to kind of go over the details. And this particular training was put in purpose to, to make, I guess the junior leaders of the team kind of step up and life and Jack will had been talking, um, before this exercise started and they're like, dude, big wall is dominating this game.

Speaker 2: 00:24:37 And they're like, this, this, this group here has a lot of success due to big wall, but we need some of the junior leaders to step up. Zo, both of them agreed that, hey, in this next exercise we're going to manage the take big wall out. So after the Humvee went down or whatever, they'd went up to big wall and they're like, sorry brother, you're out of this exercise. And Big Wall was like pissed. He's like, what? He's like, they're out. You can't make any commands, you can't do anything, go to the Humvee and like big wall. It's like, all right, that's not fair, but okay, whatever. Well then from there, like they just took him down and then just kind of watched as the whole like situation just like unraveled as like Daniel, it was kinda crazy.

Speaker 2: 00:25:21 You got anything to add to that I guess are you want to tell me what that's cool. So anyway, um, so without that, um, that, you know, just, it showed that all of the junior leaders that were on that team, they got uncomfortable, right? This is like, hey, we're living the good life. We've got a good leader. You have to run with that and you know, for this particular thing. And they took him out of the exercise, you know, everything went to hell. So I guess I kind of want to just go down, I guess how it went down. So what they also have to consider is that, you know, when training people, right, this is, this is Leif and Jocko, they also took into consideration when training people like you have to balance that training. If you're training is too easy, right? It doesn't stretch, stretch the capabilities of the participants, you know, they're not going to learn much.

Speaker 2: 00:26:20 Right. And on the opposite end, if your training is too hard, right? I mean you want it hard enough to apply pressure to decision makers, but if it's too hard that it overwhelms the participants, it's at a point where they can no longer function. The learning from that exercise just greatly great. He gets diminished. Like you just, it's just like you're, you're going up against this rock wall and you can't really get over it and right. You know, they understood that and the exercise. So after seeing all the confusion and chaos that went on with that and they're like, hey, this has gone on for too long, both of them agreed. It's like, okay, it's time to bring being walked back. So they went out to him and like, Hey, big wall, you go back alive. And I of like a Phoenix rising from the ashes a set of last week.

Speaker 2: 00:27:12 And then from there, like just, just that simple like I think they said it was a matter of minutes, big wall stepped onto, they'll steal it. He's like everybody solid two is building now. Like shouting and yelling and like pointing to the building and everybody could hear him, everybody, you know, and again to me I kind of take to know the details that aren't spoken. This is a team that's used to that leader. Like in moments like that there will be looking for is command because that's what they were actually waiting for. And as soon as he said something or you know, just a little glimmer of his voice like coming back, like I'm pretty sure they all perked up and they all like snapped out of their trance and like they saw immediate victory. So with that he regrouped. Everybody, they regrouped at another building, they got a head count and then they went through with the mission, which was really awesome. And then I think at that point, I guess the whole point of that going back to the balance thing is that they needed a big wall to come alive. So that they could teach the Lpo about that. Otherwise they just would've got sole defeated and not learn from the situation at all. I mean, I don't know. It's, I see you ever been in those situations where Oh yeah.

Speaker 1: 00:28:22 And it's hard and that's the thing that they really, I think, um, emphasize in the book to the guy that was in charge at the big wall was down. He was trying to use the radio and trying to call all of his guys and it wasn't working and, and he just kept doing the same thing over and over and over. And, and if you've ever been in a loud, chaotic situation, when, when you're, you're just in that kind of fight or flight mode in that survival mode and somebody is trying to talk into your ear, you're just not hearing. It's just not something you're in, you're hearing is all this chatter and all this different stuff and versus what Big Walt came on and did. It was like, he's like, just, there's snow and it's just like, oh everybody, whoa, what's going on? You know? Is that that pattern interrupt?

Speaker 1: 00:28:57 That's just comes, it happens and it's like, and that's what they, I love how they use that. Like we know big walk and turn us around and teach everybody a lesson here and that's what the objective was. And I, I really enjoyed that part of the story. And like it just feels a show, you know, that, you know, some something like that, some situation like that, you know, not, not, not make it an easy to let those guys get beat down and just gone off there and just yelled at him and I said, you guys are stupid letter this thing and you're not listening to the instructions versus saying watch what happens. Like here it is like watch yourself in the moment. Just switch and shift. And everybody learned from the story anyway, this great lesson. Okay, I get it now. And from there I think

Speaker 2: 00:29:42 the way that the story ended was great too because they brought him back to life and from their big wall actually did something right versus them like ending the exercise and failure. Right. And then be like, oh, you know what could have happened or you're just saying that that could have happened. No. Like it could happen. But yeah, and it's like it actually did happen. Right.

Speaker 3: 00:30:03 Sled. And that's where the lesson is. And that's the thing I liked about that training scenarios. Like damn the lesson was practical in the moment. Not after the facts in the classroom on a PowerPoint slide.

Speaker 2: 00:30:13 Exactly. And it's something that was generated from within. They didn't, they didn't add to that. They didn't tell him what to do. This stuff stepped up and did his normal thing and pulled everybody out of it. And I think a big lesson from that is that it teaches people that, hey look, when the shit is Dick and like you're in this predicament that seems unbearable and seems unaccomplishable all it takes is for one good person to step up and do something and that will turn the entire, the entire situation. And I think that that, I think that that's an awesome lesson.

Speaker 3: 00:30:46 Yes. And that person can be you no matter what position you're in. And that person can be you just one person to stand up and stop the chaos to, to, to, to make a call, to make a command to do something just takes one person to do that and that it doesn't have to be somebody in charge. Like they kinda of showed in that story, it was, you know, the guy that wind up being in charge of the big wall was down. He couldn't, he didn't know how to make that decision. So the, and the other, and I think the lesson learned by the others was it doesn't have to be big wall. It doesn't have to be the guy in charge. It could be mean, I could have made that call, I could have made that decision. Exactly. And there may have been some junior guys on there that we're thinking the exact same thing, but they didn't do anything. Right, right. Yeah. Am I eligible to make this call and this isn't my, my rank or whatever, my position in the squad. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 00:31:34 And it's just like, yeah. You never know that one too. They talked about, I mean this was in the training exercise with a big wall, but they also talked about when, um, when, when Leif and Jocko were out on an FTX and they just think you're talking about this one scenario where it was like a Black Hawk down scenario and this is kind of where they learned that hey, you know, defeat. It's is usually the best trainer but not always when you just get so defeated. And basically they were in there and they had to operate this frickin mechanical saw and it took like several minutes or something, right?

Speaker 3: 00:32:07 Yeah. They had the steel plate they had to cut through to get to the thing and um,

Speaker 2: 00:32:12 and there was no cover at all. Basic chopper down in the middle of the street. The Guy Operating the saw had no way to cover himself. They didn't have enough people to cover all the positions on the building and they just got hammered with paintball after paint ball after paint ball. And instead of those instructors like calling it quits and just like coming out with a positive solution to just let it go on, letting

Speaker 3: 00:32:38 they learn. That's what they are saying like we're so defeated.

Speaker 2: 00:32:42 It's like really? Did we learn anything from that situation at all? It's like we really need all of these paint ball rounds. Like to get the point like, okay, yeah this is a crappy position. This sucks. That's pretty much, I mean luckily they pulled some positiveness out of it, but you know in most people in that situation it's just, it wouldn't be a great call and they, from that experience, that's where they figured out, hey, you know what? That's a, that's a big wall. Get up in here and let's, let's end on a good note so that we can actually take some learning away from this training. I think that's, I think that's also a very good key quality of any leader. Like no one's going on with your training and know like when it's being like did training that you're doing defeats the purpose of what you're actually trying to accomplish.

Speaker 3: 00:33:32 That's the thing, you know, Black Hawk down a story. I think the only reason there was a lesson learned was because from my perspective of the story was leaf had enough self awareness, you know, to say something needs to be learned from this, that there's God, there's an opportunity to learn here. And, and, and, and when he said was, I learned that I need to know when to stop and retreat and then regroup and instead of staying there and just getting, you know, in real combat situation, we will all been dead incident, you know, in a matter of seconds. I was like, I learned that I need to know when to abort the mission to to fall back and it's okay to do that. And he's like, but the instructors didn't give us that opportunity. We could have easily walked away from that saying, this is stupid. These guys are dumb. That's not true. That's not real. And nothing would have been learned. But because I think late had that, that self awareness or whatever it was that he had in that point to say, listen, these guys did a shitty job training, but what can we walk away from this learning? Like even though they didn't teach us this lesson, we've got to find the lesson here to learn. And that's where I think the key and that was, and then they learn also when it's our turn to train, we know that this does nothing. Exactly.

Speaker 3: 00:34:49 And that was about that story. A chapter or

Speaker 2: 00:34:52 I think, I think that's the, you know, the combat part of that. I mean she has what has to need to hear the business side of that story. But anyway, right.

Speaker 3: 00:35:02 It's good stuff. There. Guess we could talk about chapter six, I guess the business section of it cause you seem to like that. I did like that. That was one of my favorite, uh, chapter six, aggressive, not reckless. This was good. The business story, uh, Jocko came into this company as they were growing. The CEO had brought them in to do some training and stuff and, and, and then she was like a chocolate to fall crest sieves. And she's like, he's like, yeah, that's what I'm talking about, this thing. And then he left the meeting. Oh, I love this. Just awesome. She's just aggressive. I love it.

Speaker 3: 00:35:33 Wait a minute, my too close to this like fall in love with her attitude and it's this thing, bias, confirmation bias. Exactly. And it's like, and then he, but he had the wherewithal to just say, wait a second, let me step back a little bit. Am I missing something? Am I just in love with this attitude and this person? And then he's like, wait a second, I think something's, something's off here. Like I think she's getting a little too aggressive. Ooh, hard. And then you kind of dug into the thing and he's like, you know, she was all her savings to buy the business from the previous owner. And the previous owner really wasn't doing anything with the business because you're getting ready to retire. So the cash flow was down and he's like, so Isaac always monies strap that you got all these big plans, but there's no money to fund this stuff.

Speaker 3: 00:36:17 He's like, listen, Hey, go get up, get up, get up sales projection together, get a plan together. Like I'll meet with you guys and to go through this. And it was like going through this stuff and he's like, look at, he said, all right, okay, I see, I see. And he's waiting second. That's it. As a stretch goals. And she's like, oh, I mean, yeah they are, but when we get, we get accomplished him. Cause when we get to this point, we're going to have this team, we're having this stuff. He's like, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, whoa, but you can't afford this. You say you think he said, well, yeah, but we got a sales team together and say, oh Whoa, you're basing these on like people you've never met. You've never hired that. You've never trained. I'm going to come in and you hit these goals off the top.

Speaker 3: 00:36:56 You can't afford that not to happen. And it, she was like, yeah, but people autographs. He's a guy I know, I know. Hold it up like that. I like that, but not yet. Hold on. Like let's hope your aggressiveness. And then he walked through the thing when he talked to her about it and he's like, listen, like you gotta be aggressive. I get that. Love it. But it's like you're focusing that aggressiveness in the wrong place is you're putting your company in these people's lives in jeopardy because you can't, if you go and move into this new building that's going to be half empty from the get go. You're not, you're not going to be the afford that your overhead's going to go up. You can barely afford what you have one on now and you've changed your focus. And she was like, Dang, you're right.

Speaker 3: 00:37:33 Like this. Put a plan together to stay aggressive but not living in some fantasy land. Not live in hopes and dreams and wishes. Little reckless. Yeah. Not Be reckless. And then after she was like, and she, she, when she went to like I heard, I heard you saying Jocko, she went back. She's like, I like with this they thing, I'm just applying my aggressiveness now to being lean and mean and making this thing operate as, as, as as efficiently as possible. So she still was able to take that aggressiveness but focus it in their rate. Correct way. I was like, I just, I just love the way that all played together. I think that was the first time he mentioned like contingency plans. He's like, you know, if this doesn't go according to plan, you're not going to make this. Like, yeah. I was like, Ooh.

Speaker 3: 00:38:16 And I know that. I think I like, those are a couple of these I really liked because that's they're my weaknesses. Like these are the things I don't do. I don't like contingency plans. I don't make convince, dispense out. I'm like, everything will be fine and it's not going to fight this and I know it's talking to five, but when we get there, I'm good at improvisation, I'm good at being on the fly, I'm good at those things and I don't do those things. It's nice to to have other people around me. They're like, listen, we need to have things. What if this doesn't go to pine? Like what are you going to do it and say it's nice to have those. I think that's why I like these because I relate to them. If there's one person that's reckless on this video, I'm going to mention any names default reckless.

Speaker 3: 00:39:03 But that's, that's the things I like to learn. It's like, cause I'm, I'm feeling that I feel in this. Yeah, yeah, let's do this. Let's go expand and get the new building. Get the stuff going. Like yeah it does, but not thinking like we can't afford this shit. Like this shit to the ground. Like stop reality set in for just about the real world. The real world or real people live. I like fantasy land but that's just my, I'm, I'm that optimistic. Like we'll figure shit out will make things happen. Like that's just me. But it's nice. But I know this, like I, it's taken me a long time but I figured out like that's my default, default reckless. That's me. Like, I need to find someone to its default. Tyson simmer down for a second and let's think about this like, and I know that people around me that I can say, listen, hey this is what I'm doing is what's happening. This is my thoughts. Like where's the holes good though.

Speaker 2: 00:39:56 I mean it's just kinda like every year rates, you know one of your, I guess inherit dichotomies that you need to balance, right? Right. Kinda again, brings that front of mine and helps you to realize, hey, this is, this is a story that sits well with me. This is one that I need to take away from at one that I need to focus on and just kind of be a little bit more like this, you know, maybe not so much strength and your weakness, but find somebody else that can help you with that weakness and all that kind of stuff. Edessa kind of stuff I love about this book is like no matter what stories you're reading is, is whether it's the training story or the war story or the business story. Like, you can definitely find lots of examples in this book on all the dichotomy is they talk about and how they can balance it.

Speaker 2: 00:40:44 Like it's, it's really awesome. Really awesome. All right. Any, any other points in that story you want to emphasize? I just, I know that's your story. I just let you, just love to start is one of my favorites. So I was just like, Oh, I'll let you go. Just like you letting me go a bit was too. And then, uh, so with that, I guess we can go to the next chapter. So up until this point we kind of just been doing one or the other. Um, but for chapter nine, I think Tyson and I both agreed that we kind of wanted to go over both the stories in this one more story and the business is to start, and this will kind of give you a little bit more insight on the book on, you know, how it actually flows together. Um, so on and so forth. So I guess for the war story, you want to, you want to talk about the first, the first part of the war story picking lasers because you like that part.

Speaker 1: 00:41:36 But yeah, like, and that's the thing when we were chatting offline about this, you know, like, you know, I think the lasers on a point, I'm like, no, the laser is important. So what happened was there, they're on this mission, they're going on the thing and then it was appointment or whatever it was, his laser sight, the batteries are dead. But at that point Matt was Chris Kyle by the way, shout out to him. But anyway, and so lief was like fucking dumb. He like, come on, like you got to know that we're going on a mission. They were at night where I'm the one that you need that laser, he should changed your batteries and you got to know. But he didn't, he didn't, he didn't berate him about it. He's just like our listen, okay, we gotta, we gotta, we gotta, we gotta make an adjustment to this and then, and then they're going and they're, they're, they're going through the, the, the town.

Speaker 1: 00:42:18 And then it's like all of a sudden Chris stops and lake say, I already know. Like I don't even need to know nothing. He's like, I know he can't shoot cause he don't got his laser. She's like, but I know what's happening already because we've done all this training. We've been so close together. He stopped, there's somebody there and he can't shoot at him. And so they've comes in and just take, they take it over, you know, and like that, that to me, the way he handled that situation, he didn't get down on this guy. He let him go. He knew that, you know, they know like, okay, we don't have the laser, but we know how to train. We know how to, to to go through these things. We have contingencies and Chris and then later on Chris goes and he, um, he picks out a, a good vantage point that winds up being the key to the whole mission success. And I think because life didn't berate him and beat him down, he was able to still be confident and say, I have an idea and I can present this versus my view is if life beat him down about this fucking laser battery thing, he would have been in, in the situation later on and saying, well I fucked the burlier. I sh I'm not going to have to speak up. There's no trust here. And that would have been just, you know, who knows what the mission would have been. Awful disaster.

Speaker 2: 00:43:25 Yeah. I think it takes to on that part too cause you know, at the same time, um, Chris Kyle was saying, hey look my lasers out. And then like, you know, he was just thinking about herself. But at the same time, life is thinking about the whole mission. He's like, dude, we're in the middle of nowhere right now. Like, we need to get to a secure place now without your laser. And Chris Kyle was reluctant to, you know, to go on with the mission, but you know what I mean? He understood at that point he needed to be a follower and just say, all right, laughs in charge. I don't like the situation but I'm going to go ahead with it. And at the same time Lafe took that initiative if he's like, hey look, my one of my guys is without a laser sight right now.

Speaker 2: 00:44:05 He's basically without a gun. So I need to pay attention to him and looked for his body cues. Like I thought that was kind of a, a really good thing. And he picked up on this body accused right away. He went right behind Chris cow and backed him up instantly, which is amazing. And um, you know, from there later or on an admission, like Tyson was saying, they got to a point where they needed to pick an outpost. And seeing as how Chris Kyle had more experience on the underground. Chris Kyle was like, I liked that building over there and life was like, I had a different building picked out. I'm not sure what's going on, but because Chris Kyle had more experience and I also think is, you know, like you said, that lays their story. He's like, damn it, I let Chris School for so long without this laser like as like maybe it is like, and I didn't listen to him back then.

Speaker 2: 00:44:55 I should have let him change his batteries earlier. Right. It's like maybe I should listen to him now and like, I don't know. I always wonder about that kind of stuff. You gotta wonder. It's like, hmm, did that. And I was like, is there something else? There is a catalyst. It's less leaf was able to, to recognize that and say, instead of saying, well, not going to micromanage, he's little fucking children because you can't keep batteries fresh brushed you to do this now this is, no, I've got to take over this. He was like, no, listen, you're the guy with the most experience. You're an appointment here, like you, you, you see something that's check it out. Like all right. And Yeah, I think to me that to redeem himself a little bit too. Yeah, possibly. Possibly. Like I said, there was the kind of stuff in the book that's not written, but maybe in some la La land, maybe life will be watching this video and he'll be like, you guys are on it.

Speaker 2: 00:45:50 So to him who never knows. But anyway, that Chris's recommendation ended up being the best call I think from that position alone. He said they had like 21 confirms sniper kills and many other possibles. Um, and it's just like at that point, an instance when he actually listened to his support in it. Like, you know what I mean? He, he took a hit me, I mean maybe it even take a hit on his pride, but we think that it's like, it's not showing you he's a weaker leader actually. He shows that he was stronger leader and because of it, the team was, the team and the mission were far more successful. It's crazy. That's the core message I love about this thing. It's like he's not worried about his ego or his reputation or whatever by taking command from somebody that's lower rank than him, but more more experienced that he is like, he's okay with that.

Speaker 2: 00:46:43 And that is what I think and I know they allude to it a little bit is what makes them good leaders, what makes them have respect from your team. Like you know when your plan sucks in my opinion is better and we're going to go with the best plan, the best outcome, the best person for this job, no matter rank or position or whatever it be. And then adding onto that, I guess late goes until a little flashback Hanjin runoff about when they were in some other training operation. And there was a another seal there who had more ground experience and there were confusion about which sop they were going to follow. And then like, you know, the life and this seal, they kinda got into it a little bit. And then the guy's like, you know, I think this, I think my sop is better.

Speaker 2: 00:47:28 And they just like what? I just put one out, it's going to cause confusion. And you know, life even went on to admit, he's like, the differences between the slps was like irrelevant, right? He just thought at that point he was a young leader. He thought this was a uh, you know, a pissing contest. They got a measure, I'll see who's longer leaf grew, impatient and like, he's like, I need to demonstrate I'm in charge here. So basically just told the CEO, he's like, this conversation is over. And like after that late felt bad, he's like, dude, I just use the weakest form of leadership to win this argument. And he's like, the weakest form of leadership is to win something by rank or position. You know, I neither one of, they call it like rocks is or rank or something, you know, junk kind of fall as like a rank.

Speaker 2: 00:48:14 Always Wade's all the dynamite, whatever God or whatever. It's like rank always blends that argument. There's no, there's no consultation, there's no nothing. It's just basically do what I say. Yeah. And then, um, you know, they feel bad about that instantly and then he was eventually able to make up with that officer and you know, that petty officer and at that, that point in moment that he realized, Hey, you know what, I could have shown that I was a stronger leader by listening to this guy who had a little bit more experience when in on overall it could have helped. And that flashback rate is kind of what allowed him, helped him make a decision with Crestcom and be like, all right, we'll go with, we'll go with your plan and uh, we'll, we'll go through with that. So, and that was

Speaker 3: 00:49:04 one of the great lessons I learned from the first book that if you, if your, if your answer, the only thing you can think of it is because I said so like you have a weak position, you don't even understand why that is. And that's something I've, I've evaluated within like myself because I catch myself saying that I'm switching to my kids and stuff. Like, why don't I do this? Talk to me just because I said so just get it done. And it's like, and that's the answer because I have no fucking clue. And as a thing that he said, he's like, you know, and they say they will move to it again here I think they talked a little bit more about it and extreme ownership, but that was to me one of the key lessons is is if that's what I think I need to reevaluate

Speaker 2: 00:49:48 why I'm thinking this, I have, I have a weak position on this thought. I really, really enjoyed that. And even in this chapter he goes on further to save like right before the business story, he talks about the principles and he's like a leader has got to be willing to follow and recognize when junior leaders have the ability to step up and take charge. He's like, good leaders will always allow junior leaders to step up and do something and not only will they allow them to step up, but to also give him credit for it, right? That you're going to see those weak leaders out there like take credit for stuff that's not theirs all mean. And then they're going to pull that rank thing on you, you know, as like as a, as a good leader and, or as a good follower. Like you should execute things, you know, as they be. But you know what I mean? It's just when you got somebody who's a, a leader above you, that's either less aggressive or unconfident or uncharismatic, whatever the boss from hell, whatever, whatever the case might be, you know, it's just like you got to deal with that. And that kind of leads into what the next story is about. The boss giving his immediate boss giving you a crappy review is you want to take down, do you want me to talk on this part or what?

Speaker 1: 00:51:02 Oh, we could go. Yeah. This was, uh, Leif was talking about, he had a friend in New York City that was looking for a one on one things and they had just kind of stopped doing that and he's like, decided to, you know, kind of take him on. And he went through and you know, talking about like, you know, this new boss, he, we know he hates me, we just can't get along. And, and as it said, it's affecting, it's affecting my guys bonuses and their paychecks. And then it gives me, this battery view is like this mother fucker. I just had it with him. Like, what, how do I get rid of this guy or what do I do? And then

Speaker 2: 00:51:40 this initial responses like, oh, we don't offer it. Yeah, right, right. Think that guy's name was Jim in that star. And Jim was like, he's like, well, I'll do what I really want this and I'll, you know, I'll make it as inconvenient to, I'll come out to meet you, we'll do lunch or something like that. And um, I think it also had something to do with, like, the life had affinity with this guy too. He's like, dude, I feel this guy. He's a, he's a, he's a competent leader. He's smart, he's aggressive, he's driven to like accomplish thing. So kind of, they've kind of made a little exception on the spot with him about it. So it was kind of some of the background stuff behind it.

Speaker 1: 00:52:18 Yeah, like all the, you know, went through kind of we're going to talk to them about, he's like, listen, you know, if you're gonna, if you're going to be this guy that's the buffer between your boss and your team. Like you've got to, you know, maybe this guy is wrong. Maybe he's, he's a, he's a scared of you. He was intimidated by it. By you, you know, he's like, a lot of times when your boss, you know, is looking to kind of undercut you. It's because he's scared of you taking his job or something along mines is that you got to recognize this is like, listen man, like if you keep going at this, it's just going to get worse. Second, you keep coming out of your boss, you keep giving him shit. You go above to his boss, you tried to throw him under the bus like this is you're going to get worse and the people that are going to suffer are the people that you're in charge of and it's just like, Ooh, like,

Speaker 2: 00:53:05 and that's the kind of part two relief had experience too. Cause he even mentioned, he's like, believe it or not, he's like, there's bad leaders in the military tools. Like everybody understands this fallacy that the leader has all these great military leaders. He's like, that's not even true. He said there's just as many bad leaders in the military as there are in the civilian world and he's like

Speaker 3: 00:53:25 sick. You got to recognize and understand that, yeah, sure you're going to fight over this one little dispute about your review that you have and that's going to cause you so many more problems down the line. And life was just telling him from experience. He's like, look, I am exactly like you. I've had this problem before and I, this is what I've done and it's just made things worse for me and that's what's going to happen to you. I was like, Dang is this Kinda is like laying it on thick. And I like how he kind of concluded with a like listen, like go, go back to your bosses, earn his respect. Like even though you don't agree like fix these things. Like go, go and look at these things. Like listen, hey these are the things that you laid out. Got It. We'll make that happen.

Speaker 3: 00:54:10 Like build a relationship and I make him trust you. Make him, you know, make, make him know how valuable you are and all this stuff. And then from there you can protect the people below you. You can shield them from the shit rolling too far down the hill. You know, you can do all these things, get them this bonus by, by building this relationship. You know, you don't have to, you don't have to like him. You don't name any names, sound. I have to trust him when she got to work with him. You've got to let him know that he can work with you. Yeah, I like that attitude too. And he said like they've came at it from, from the great thing too. He's like, he's like, are you trying to tell me that everything in this bosses review is wrong? It's like you kind of tell me you're at optimal performance and there was nothing you can do at all to better improve yourself.

Speaker 3: 00:54:56 Right. It's like, come on, that ain't true. And the guy, Jim's like, yeah, you right. There were some of those things that he said that were spot on and they just like, see, you got some common ground right there. He says, if you can accept that then except that, and try to work on those things that you actually agree with that. I was like, damn, you know, and he kind of flip the script to write. He's like, you know, if you, if you go and do this, he's like, just think about, it's like you're going to get a small victory, but strategically it's a loss. And if you try to flip the script on this, I was like, you know what? I just had a thought too that I didn't think about earlier was sometimes I wonder, I don't know if this is the case, but you ever have like the person that like, they're just the hardest on you.

Speaker 3: 00:55:40 Like you're just like, why? Why are you picking on me? And it's like later on you find out like I'm picking on you because I see it in you. I know you can do this. I know you can be the guy I had that many times and it's like, Oh damn mad at you this whole time. But you were just looking out for me. Dang. But I mean he even goes further to say like, you know, this is like either a, a personality conflict or a clash, a clash and ideas or two people with different mindsets, whatever the case might be. Right. In this case, Jim was a default aggressive guy or whatever. And then his new bosses maybe not as confident or maybe, you know, he's got his own thing going on too. And it's just, you have this personality clash. Yeah. But you

Speaker 2: 00:56:24 know, you just, you know, life went down and broke it to him too. It does all the way he got. He's like, you're failing. Jim's like, what? You're feeling to be a follower right now. Jim's like, Dale, he's like taken back. But being kind of aggressive person like you, you don't really take failing really well on a makeup for it as like, Ooh. I was like, ah, because I can relate to that story because I don't like to fail either. So when someone tells me I'm failing, I'm like, no, I'm not failing boss. I'm, I'm, I'm going to do this now. I'm going to do it the right way. I'm not failing.

Speaker 1: 00:56:57 They're almost prove how not failing. I am. Let me show you how.

Speaker 2: 00:57:01 Yeah. Like that. Cause that sits with me like that's his miles would be when somebody tells me I'm a failure, I'm like, Whoa, whoa. Failing here. Emotional you.

Speaker 1: 00:57:11 Yeah. Kind of see my winds. Hold on a second. Let me show you.

Speaker 2: 00:57:17 That's kind of what, that's kind of for me when I take back and I'm like, okay,

Speaker 1: 00:57:21 yeah, it's hard. I hit it. Your Ego, they hit at your prior, you're like, Ooh, fuck you, I didn't failing. How? No,

Speaker 2: 00:57:27 but then when you take a step back, you realize like, damn I am. Yeah,

Speaker 1: 00:57:32 well, hey listen, 710 of these things are good. Hey, I'm about to 70% like I am failing. Like yeah, but those are the three. But that's the key. That's crucial. Like, and to have that self awareness and that ability to detach a little and say, you know what, I can get better there. I am fucking up a little bit like, and if I cleaned this up, and especially in this situation, this affects my downstream team, which, which is their bonuses, which is their incentives or whatever it is. And it's like feed their families. Yeah. I was like, I'm, my main concern is taking four days guys, mouse, but it's not coming from him necessarily. It's also coming from me. Like, Shit, yeah, I'll send this to realize that

Speaker 2: 00:58:16 lashes Kinda, it's like, you know, I like when he puts it out there, it's like you got to strive to have the same relationship with every boss that you work for it. Whether that boss has the greatest boss in the world or whether the worst boss in the world, you know, you just basically got to make sure that a, they trust you, right? You're the gold guy that he or she goes to when they need help. You know what I mean? And that they can promote, you know, and just make sure that you, you give them, you let them know what you need to accomplish the job and like, and it's, it's so simple, but like at the same time, that's the hardest thing to do. It's like work for this guy that you hate. Like you clash with this person so much that it's just a like ruins or soul. Yet as a leader, if you want what's good for your team underneath you, you know you're the best chance for your team succeeding is for you to have a good relationship with your boss. I was like, yeah, I kind of take that to heart to man. I Dunno. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 00:59:14 No, and another thing, it's not something necessarily from this book, but from, from what I learned about this type of, it's like,

Speaker 3: 00:59:22 you know, when, when somebody's pissing you off or, or, or frustrating you or whatever it is, that's you. That's your interpretation of that is your choice to be overwhelmed. This, your choice to be frustrated as your choice to whatever they're doing to you. Cause they ain't doing shit to you. It's, you are taking it that way. You have the choice to say, it doesn't frustrate me. This doesn't irritate me, you know? But that's hard to take that in and to learn that, um, no, nobody can can control you in that way that you have to say, I'm not going to feel like this. I'm not going to allow this person to frustrate me or whatever. It's hard. But if you can recognize that and say I'm the one that's doing this, I'm the one in control of the interpretation or whatever it is. That's when you can also unlock this kind of a self awareness of whatever you want to call it to, to, to broaden your horizon into this kind of thing. Yeah. And then a chapter 10, what was this, the war story?

Speaker 2: 01:00:27 Uh, this one is basically just planned but don't over plan and yeah, this was the, this was was a worst story. I guess this Kinda goes into two parts. This is fine now that I'm looking at it. But yeah, I just kind of like the first part because it just, it just shows like down this guy like plan for everything. So basically I guess they were in like one of the worst places right there. It's called firecrackers circle. Like that's just what it's called. They're like one of the most dangerous places that you could possibly imagine. And that road or that place was known for, for ideas popping off. And so soldiers that usually got stuck, our pin down out there just kind of had to wait it out for a while before getting picked up. So knowing all of this, um, was the Jocko was doing this, Alief was doing this one from here.

Speaker 2: 01:01:20 He's like, he's like, yeah I kind of went through everything and you know, they had the standard load out so he had the standard load out plus like all this extra stuff and like I'm just going to read it off cause like, I don't know if any of you know how much this stuff weighs but it weighs a ton. A crap ton. Anyway, standard load out I think was seven rifle magazines, three pistol magazines, one radio, one antenna, one extra battery for your radio. Like to frag grenades of battle map, a flashlight, night vision goggles with a spare amount. Like I'm not even done reading the standard load out. And I'm like damn, that's pretty damn heavy already there. From there he's like, you got a spare battery for every device, your Kevlar helmet, your Kevlar armor with the plates, with the plates in them.

Speaker 2: 01:02:17 Not to mention that they in during the day as 110 degrees Fahrenheit and that night, even at night it was 90 degrees Fahrenheit Lake. I was like legit, like that's your standard load up on top of that he brought, this was the extra gear that he brought on every mission you bought an extra grenade launcher attachment that goes right underneath your rifle with one in the chamber and six extra grenades for that attachment. I was like Ooh. And a hundred pound box of Ammo, a hundred rounds. Not for his gun. No heavy machine gunners cause he's, so this wasn't just your regular standard like rifle, this was like machine gunner, minimal flares. Like I was like okay like even that like that's that. That's pretty bad. Probably a hundred pounds or so. And then like from there, like for this particular mission he added extra stuff because he thought they might get stranded for awhile.

Speaker 2: 01:03:13 So he added four extra rifle magazines on top of what he had 12 extra grenades on top of what he had a tracer round magazine, smoke grenades, three frag grenades, an extra radio with two extra radio batteries on top of it. And then he brought an extra, well I think he said he normally brings like five bottles bottles or this mission. He brought 12 bottles of water, which he said in water weight alone was 40 pounds. An extra food. Like dude, I was like, Danielle, just that list alone. It's like, dude, who is this guy's guy? Incredible Hulk because I can't carry that.

Speaker 2: 01:03:57 And that was a funny thing. And then I was like, wait a minute, but we just have a mom or I need more stuff. It was like, wait a minute, I'm even more of this, but what about this? What about that is just talk through it like, Ooh, Ooh. And all I never front there. He's like, goes on. He's like, he said, and I should have noticed it cause I had a hard time zipping up my rucksack. It was like he couldn't even close his backpack. And then he's like, and then from there just shouldering the weight, like he just stood up and put it on his shoulders. He didn't even start walking. He's like, it felt a little heavy. I was like, yeah, that's a navy seal. I am talking a little heavy minds.

Speaker 2: 01:04:43 Oh, it was like, yeah, I felt a little heavy and then like he didn't know it at the time he was doing this while he was walking with the marines, so he said the navy seals use cover and move. So they just kind of cover one position and go from one to the next. The marines had a different tactic in which they go to guys cover and two guys sprint, they sprout blocks all us renting. So not only is he wearing all this extra crap when now on top of that he's got a a sprint, which he's not even used to doing. I was like, Oh yeah. I was like, oh, an African. What would you say is like the crushing weight of those down, the heavy chest beating and drenching. I was like, damn, you could just feel it from the way I was like, oh, he's like my glasses for fogged up so much.

Speaker 2: 01:05:36 I had to pick them off. Like I was like, oh it's good thing you brought all that extra water. I'm pretty sure a 10 pounds drenched in sweat. He couldn't keep up. She said going to remember like his seal training commander talking. Like if I started laughing I was like, yeah this is one of those instances. But you know the moral of the story is like he plan for every contingency possible and make, because his gear was so much like all he could really focus on was putting one foot in front of the other. You had no like, you know, situation awareness of what's going on around. He was unable to leave because he was so overburdened with just the weight of his own stuff. He couldn't focus or be any good to the team at all and like I was like damn. I was like, that's just like such a, that's such an important, like it's something so simple and like a kind of a funny story.

Speaker 2: 01:06:46 But yet at the same time, right. It's like, you know, you can't plan for everything. And like a wise person once said the word everything and nothing can sometimes you're actually not even sometimes can usually be interchangeable. Everything you're actually planning for nothing at all. Just Kinda Kinda remember that. And it's just like, you know, it's just like, that was just one of the, the, you know, because this lesson is about balancing the dichotomy. That was the one example they gave where he was just kind of overpowering for everything. And then in a, and then I guess like I said, this is like a Ooh, part war story. Ais. So the other part where he was talking about, I think he said even in this one, they didn't talk about this story in extreme ownership about the missions that they didn't take, I guess. Oh yeah.

Speaker 2: 01:07:41 That was kind of one of the flaws of the book. They made it seem like, you know, over pounding and all this other stuff. Again, I didn't read the first book. I don't really know bud and this and this book, they did talk about some of the missions that they didn't take. One of the missions that intake was because of this new, um, was he special forces forces team. I don't know how new they were, how cocky or whatever it was. I don't quite remember the nuance of that. But yeah, I was a special forces team or whatever. It was about confident and this guy was a vault aggressive. Yeah. Had this bold plan like we're going to drive down the main road in broad daylight. Like I was like in this road was known to have high on it. Like I was like, well I see side lane or whatever and it's like craziness to drive down there. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 01:08:31 And that's the thing. The guy was just like, and then leave. He was like, what about alternate routes? But something happens. It's like you don't need that. I was like, what's this road is just just hell on earth, right. What we're supposed to forces. Like I don't, I don't see the problem here. What if something happens? It's like nothing's going to happen. It's like, oh, Jesus. You're like, damn, I thought I was bad. It's the worst.

Speaker 2: 01:08:56 Oh No. And then from there life, you know, that's when he was like, am I missing something? Maybe I should go to, you know, somebody who's been on the ground. So I think they went to a national guard union.

Speaker 3: 01:09:07 Yeah. We could go sit in the national guard, uh, colonel or whatever, the commander and talked to him like, Hey, this guy's paneling. What do you think? And he's like, that is literally suicide. Whoever's doing this, tell them this is dumb. Don't drive down that road. And then he goes back as like, that's what I thought. That's, that's what I thought. He was not. The guy's like, listen, Hey. Then as we have, our colonel said this, he's like, yeah, it was an extra guard. Guys were special forces,

Speaker 2: 01:09:30 national guard. I was like, they got 15 months experience on the ground in the area that you're driving through. No, not other than their national guard. We're not going to have the same problems. Like, um, that's just being all out cocky and arrogant as to be stupid. Sometimes I'm guilty of that. I'm going to raise my hand real. I know that to me. But at the same time, like that's when those times when you should have made contingency plans for something that you know can possibly happen and it's like not taking any regard or anything like that, you know, those are the one times in which like, you know, it kind of pays to just kind of be humble and not be so full of over confidence and arrogance that you feel you're invincible to anything because that's just, that's kind of where you, you know, if he don't have for contingencies, that stuff is going to hurt you. It's going to come back to bite you in the butt.

Speaker 3: 01:10:37 It didn't have to be in this situation. It didn't have to do some extravagant, extravagant plan of 45 different contingencies if this happened and that and that. And that just had to be a couple of little things just to take that

Speaker 2: 01:10:49 a second or a third, a second or third route.

Speaker 3: 01:10:53 Yeah. They didn't have to get bogged down in details of four or five plans, you know, just a couple quick thing.

Speaker 2: 01:10:59 Okay. This is the main road going on. If this road is taken fry option B, option B is taken, try option c biopsies taken. We're pulling out regroup. Yeah. That option. See, could have been, okay, we're to go down to the third row. I mean we're going on a second route. A second round is not there. Then option C is pulled out and we're going to, we're going to regroup and try this again.

Speaker 1: 01:11:21 Yeah. It's the good thing about that whole situation. The story was nobody got killed even though as soon as you start trying to road id goes off, fresh truck is, is blown up and then everybody's stuck there and then, and then their whole mission is over and right from, from from the star and it's like we told you not to do that and instantly that's what happens. Thank God you got nobody killed. Like I was like, and I think the truck was burning and something to find. The guys were stuck inside and they had to wait for some big heavy record to come and get them. And it's like, Dang, dude, like I, those are tough, you know, especially when you're, you know, when you're, when you're, when you're confident were you getting a lot of wins and you're going to win after win after win.

Speaker 1: 01:12:02 And like nothing can stop us. Nobody can take us down. Like none of this stuff, you know, like he talks about, um, we didn't really talk about it. He's talking about when the guys were, um, they just, you know, win after win and they start taking their, their bulletproof plates out and he's like, like, wait a second. Like, what are you guys doing lane? But when you get in that mentality of win, after win, after win, you start to feel like that invincibility set, the feel like that. And I'm sure that's what it seems like those guys felt like missing. We just, we make it happen all the time. We don't lose. And it's like, I don't need to make plans to lose because we don't lose. And it's like shit for,

Speaker 2: 01:12:36 I mean, it's a good place to be if you're there. I mean the science at the same time, don't, don't let that be, you know, something that's an expectation because, you know, expecting endeavor, it was just, it's kind of a bad contingency plan. Yup.

Speaker 1: 01:12:52 And then the consensus between the two of us, our favorite story is, you know, all the stories so far, we kind of, it kind of seemed that it went kind of an order here from ace chapter, whatever. We saved this one for last. This was both of our, as a cause. Like I said, it was a consensus, our favorite story from chapter three, resolute but not overbearing. And while some radios and some patches, something so simple yet so meaningful. I don't, oh, I know what it is about. This story is just, there's just something about it isn't fun. It's not the rebellious side of you. And you're like, you know, like I got this no big deal. And it's like, yeah, no, I hear what you're saying, but we're good. And it's like, and it comes up, bite you and asked you, you're like, damn.

Speaker 2: 01:13:40 Yeah, but you know, and as always, I mean the way this chapter opens up, like I just love the way, you know, they described the combat scenarios, right. And then you hear the sound effects with like the cool lasers and the smoke and the tracer rounds sound the supersonic bullet. It's like buying pasture in the heavy duty tanks rolling on the ground. I was like, ah, stuff verbatim. They use like we hear the molecule. So I was like falling in love with all that military John Risk. Yeah. Like I dunno, just adds to the, I guess the moral of this story is it does, it builds that, that, that picture and the drama, it brings you into that scenario and you start to feel like, like you're kind of there. Like I get what you're saying. In a way, I've played enough call of duty to understand and like call of duty.

Speaker 2: 01:14:29 But Anyway, um, the chapter opens up as like, the seals are in this building and they're taking fire. Like they notice that it's, you know what they call blue on blue, like it's their own tank firing onto the building, which they are in like as lucky it was just his machine gun and not as freaking heavy cannon but it was full academy. We probably would have been decimated. Right. It's like every second counts. It's like we need to get ahold of that tank operator like right now, not just any time comfort. I think he said there were like 50 tanks on the ground or something that's specific to that specific one and tell him to stop firing right away. Cause if he fires again he might hit or kill at any one of the guys in that squad. It was like, it was like everything mattered.

Speaker 2: 01:15:18 And at that time he just got on there, he reprogrammed the radio to the channel that the tanks were on and he's like, hey tank operator, blah blah blah blah blah. Cease Fire, cease fire. And like the firing stopped immediately. Molds like it was like, Ooh, you're head's. Okay good. Okay. Okay, thank goodness I knew how to do that. And like, so they kinda like flashback the story a bit and this is kind of the purpose. Um, you know, it's just that um, jack was out there trying to explain how important it was to reprogram the radio is because he kind of been through something like this and this guy's been through this so they don't really know. You know, in previous missions it always been a radio mince job for communications. But in the fact that there were, they're in Ramadi, the fact is that they would be broken down to such small units than not everybody would have a radio man or something like that with them.

Speaker 2: 01:16:12 Right? Yeah. So you know, above all the rest of the crap that seals have to do to prepare for mission, right. Document mentioned it a few times. He's like, and make sure you guys know how to program your radios. You know, and it's just like, and then like being a trooper, I guess I can kind of relate to that as like radios, like all the stuff we've got to do. Like all these kids, we got a plan for all his gear. We got to pack and yet you get on my ass about a radio, like, seriously. It's like Jocko knew that, you know, in that situation with the tank, like that could save your life. That's life and death. So like, I, you know, and again, this is kind of the part that I really like about this book is like, Jocko knew, like he started asking questions.

Speaker 2: 01:16:56 Everybody's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But like, Daca knew from the expression on their faces and like the stairs that people were getting, he's like, wait a minute, something's not right here. You know what I mean? Just saying it blatantly did nothing. So he actually took action and I guess what's The guy's name? Bid For something? Yeah, it was a real guy. Or they just took back to the future back from back to the future. But they grabbed this radio and Jocko cleared it, cleared the memory off the, and he's like, biff reprogram this radio and just like, uh, uh, uh, yeah. Um, and like, I dunno, I guess to me I can kind of relate because when I was in junior ROTC at, you know, I was in charge of a bunch of guys so I kind of know what that's like. But I thought this was like so smooth cause like he really didn't make a big deal out of it.

Speaker 2: 01:17:49 Sure. He made an example. I'm the Guy Yelling, screaming, go on a Tyree for 25 minutes about why? Yeah. About why he's just like, all right, okay. He went to the radio. It's like if there's a radio guy, you two get together, make sure biff knows how to reprogram his radio. And then he's like, he pulled that, you know, and then he's like, crawl or y'all saw there, make sure you know how to reprogram a radio if nobody knows how to do it on next mission. It is like, I thought that was like really smooth on his part. It was a way to like make an example yet at the same time, not make an example. I don't know. Yeah. It wasn't like demeaning or whatever, you know?

Speaker 3: 01:18:33 It was, it was done tactfully. Like, listen, this is important. Like I know you don't get it and if you don't want to get it, then you can stay behind. And it's like, for CEO's it's like they all want to do is go get some, you know what I mean? It's like, wait, wait, wait. We can't leave if we don't know how programs radio, like fuck that

Speaker 2: 01:18:50 done by lunch. You got to go get some like hell no.

Speaker 3: 01:18:59 Jockos you know, knowing, knowing when to hold the line and what was important. One is not important to I guess the basis of this whole chapter in the story. Like what's important and like understanding that and conveying that in a way that makes it happen. And Jocko was so smooth about doing that. And then the preface w, you know, the way the story started was that saved countless lives in just that story alone. You know, who knows how many other situations than they ever talked about that they needed to reprogram radios too.

Speaker 2: 01:19:34 Direct communication with was right. It's like, yeah, where every second counts. Right? Right. Laugh offer, no one that's going to be in here. You ain't got a radio in near you. It's like, damn, what do I do? You know what to do? You would perform a radio, it was be done. This is like Daniel. Yeah. So I dunno. I kinda like, again, I like the way that Jocko just experienced grace under fire on that and just, he just like set the example real quick and everybody knew it. They got it immediately because him constantly badgering them. He knew that, you know, hey, I'm doing the same thing. It's not having an effect on them. I need to switch it up. I need to do something so that these guys get it right. And I just thought that was brilliant. It was freaking amazing.

Speaker 1: 01:20:19 Yeah. And in the second half of that story, which is kind of fun, it's like the same lesson, but it's a little more fun. It's like, I guess, I don't know if anybody never been in the military and stuff. They, it's kind of like this fun little sense of pride kind of thing where where everybody, the design, these patches and you go get them sold and stuff and there's a really fun and cool stuff I've seen and it's really fun. And the, and the seals I guess or really I guess notorious whatever for the things that they had they had made and done and all of these different things. And Jocko is like, listen, we can't go out there and look and look at it crazy and foolish and these people, people are gonna you know, be like, you know, see us and see all this crazies patches on us and stuff and on her uniforms and it's like we can't have none of that. And like we've to, we've got to cut it, we've got to come in. Their choice guys were professional so you guys know what, you know what we know how to do. And it's really, really, really interesting how they, how they went.

Speaker 2: 01:21:13 I look at the whole Hollywood genre of like navy seals and stuff in the movies, you always like, you see your regular standard uniform for the regular standards soldier do this special forces guys rolled up and like they're wearing like half civilian clothes far. We closed a guy like you know, and like I said, he got like these, it's funny patches with like very inappropriate like Freakin will be quotes on them or whatever the case might be. So I don't know what it was like back then, but I mean apparently you have a uniform and apparently, you know, they had been slapped with these patches for so long. I mean, um, I, I bet they were probably hilarious. I'm sure Jocko understood that.

Speaker 1: 01:21:53 I think Jocko said that they didn't know some funny shit out there.

Speaker 2: 01:21:57 It's like I get that the funny, yeah, it's like I get it. He says, but they're not going to help us build relationships with the conventional forces we're working with. And like I guess as a leader, that's the other thing that you kind of got to look at. It's like, okay, these patches build morale or troops and that's kind of what we've been doing. But when we look at the bigger picture, you know, how are we as special forces setting the example of being a soldier if we're not in uniform. Right. And it's just something, I guess as simple as that yet it's a bit complicated. It's a bit complex. I Dunno. Sorry, I'm losing my voice. He continue the story. I think there were or something one day, right?

Speaker 1: 01:22:42 Yeah. So yeah, so director from Jacqueline was like, get rid of the patches and everybody's like, sounds good. All right, we get it. We understand like why? And then so then Nathan and stuff before they go out to like that, man, we need some different, like our unit for tasking a bruiser like we need something to show what's up. And it hit him, his buddy, we're like, yeah, we do like that's make the shit. But he can't tell Jocko and the kid because they're talking of nothing. Have a good

Speaker 3: 01:23:06 time. Like, you can feel like they're like, yeah, you know, that little like, you know, mom and dad's away kind of like vibe. Like we're going to go and do this stuff and no one's gonna find out, it's gonna be awesome. And you know, and so they're going to make these patches and it get them just in time before deployment. And they're like this sort of secret thing that have this little fun little secret they have, you know.

Speaker 2: 01:23:25 Oh Nah, she's, one of them was like fucking big balls and cow town. That's crazy. The other one from the Lord humungous from, from Mad Max road warrior. And I said like, um, off told us of rock and roller or something like that. Like I was like, Oh, you didn't watch road. I never seen that. So I don't understand the reference there, but that's, that's, I should check that out. And they'll Gibson one though. But uh, yeah, but I mean, I think they went on further to say that. I mean they did have those outrageous things on them, but I think they did see bruiser bruiser unit on top of the ski bruiser whatever. Yeah, they were, like I said, they were well done to not be offensive and look professional and show team unity and cohesion and whatnot.

Speaker 3: 01:24:20 We had the same thing and and everything. And then I was their little, their little secret ranks and it's like they always kept in their shoulder pocket and it's like as soon as they get into Humvees, you know it's an, it's just a little far enough way from chocolate and it's fine. You can just feel like I can just, I can just imagine myself in this thing and like, Ooh, you don't know what the hell are I doing when I'm in a good time. Like I can just see like the fun and the grittiness of it. But that's the thing, right? The morale and building that team, karate, camaraderie and all of that. That's the point of the passionate. I was appointed the whole thing. Right. And then, and then, and it's funny that like when I'm going to get caught, like are so good at this. Like this is awesome. And the Jack was never going to find out. And then all of a sudden like there's this journalist that goes along with them. I was taking pictures of them and they get back and you see the pictures and shit. He's like, you can see all of us would our patches on that's not authorized. And just looking at the pictures and didn't say nothing.

Speaker 2: 01:25:30 I didn't hear anything. I waited another day and I still didn't hear anything. It's like, oh, there's the wrath. Like Dale, this kid here in trouble. And you're like, your parents already say nothing and you know, they know and you're just waiting meeting like, damn, I'm in fucking trouble. They can't even figure out how much trouble I'm in.

Speaker 3: 01:25:56 It's funny, but then nothing happened. It's like you, whatever it is that cool.

Speaker 1: 01:26:04 Okay. And then it's like, are we going to still keep the same tradition? I'll make sure that, you know, when I'm around here we're not doing it as he Jocko understood. Like, I know why you guys did this. I know why you're doing it. You're good about not keeping them on around base or not, you know, and we're not, we're not showing this, you know, this disrespect that is different things, you know, to the other other service members and whatever. And on top of that, all of the other ludicrous patches that they had when they were gone, they all had the scene like unofficial thing, official patch bruiser or like it was just kinda like an unsaid thing. He never really cleared the patches. Right. He never really said that they weren't clear. Right. So like there's that gray area. Yeah, exactly. But then it became this like token or symbol of like task and improves your like Dang do.

Speaker 1: 01:26:54 They gave me one of those patches like Dang, I did something really good. Like it became like that, you know, that reward of that, that thing like Tan, look what I got from these guys. I think they said like a few key commanders and personnel who were key key elements and missions. Like the ash handed those patches out and gave them to those, to those commanders. I was like, damn, that's actually, you know, so now something that was, you know, said to be outrageous and I guess not part of Standard Sop and professional and sessional and now kind of became something that's like, Hey, this is tasking your bruisers patch and keeping it out. It's like, Oh Dang. Like this actually needs something now. Something that's just thrown out there just so that they can be rebels like that is bestowed his high honor upon somebody like Tam.

Speaker 1: 01:27:47 Some CEO gave me their, their, their team unit bruiser passion and I'm sort of, people felt like this was some official thing, you know, like this is from them only this, this squad wears these patches. Like wow. Yup, for sure. And again, it brought them closer together as a unit. Like that whole exercise itself, like, and that's what Jocko understood. Like I, this is something I, I don't, I, there's no reason to push back like this. Is this a good thing? The underlying point, it was been taken, they got rid of the nonsense and then something like the radio is like, listen, this is something I do got to hold the line. I do got to set the standard and keep the standard because this is something important that I'm missing. The value here, you missing the importance of it and knowing, right, right. Different versus wearing patches and not going to necessarily save your life will help you get along better with other, with other soldiers and other units. Yeah, so that was the core story is just, you know like this whole book is everything in here is, is not being on the end of the ended up barbell or dumbbell staying in their center. Knowing when to not be here when the hold the line and when to when to lead, when to follow. Like all these different things. Like it's just a really fun, great story and I'm not sure if was mentioned in the first

Speaker 2: 01:29:02 book, but I particularly liked this story in particular because they bring out this term called leadership capital.

Speaker 1: 01:29:11 Oh, I don't remember that being in the first book, but it's possible.

Speaker 2: 01:29:14 But I, but yeah, but for me, when I saw that here, I was like, damn, I was like, they actually create a word for it. And the word itself kind of just makes you think about it a little bit. It's like as a leader you only have so much authority. It actually limits, right? It makes it find out how much authority you actually have. So as a leader you have to be careful how you spend your capital, right? Because if you spend it unwisely on dumb things like patches, fucking cell phones, like, like people are not going to take you seriously versus spending your capital on something important like a radio that can actually save your life. And that's kind of like, to me, I was like, damn, that's actually a pretty smart way of putting it. Like, you know, and this isn't something that's grown over time.

Speaker 2: 01:30:04 You got a lot of people out there as a Kol, respect must be given like hell no. Any true leader knows that respect is earned slowly and it's learned over time. And it's built with trust and if you break that trust, like it's going to cost you a lot to get that back. It's almost impossible. Whenever your trust back it's really hard. Yeah. You know and it's just like, you know, so don't spend that leadership capital foolishly. You got to figure out why and what's most important and not just do it because I said so. Cause when you say that, oh because I said so are you pull that rank, that weak form of leadership, you're just using up your leadership capital on wise ways like I don't know. That's just my opinion. Maybe. I Dunno.

Speaker 1: 01:30:48 Knowing I agree because I mean if you've ever been around and worked for somebody that that's always every little thing I'm from the things that don't matter to the things that matter. You can't tell like is this something important? Is this something I should prioritize? It's like you bitch about everything. I have no fucking clue what's important or not important. What matters or not? Does it matter? Like do I need to tighten this bolt? Like I don't know. You just constantly are complaining about things and knowing,

Speaker 2: 01:31:13 and did you get the memo? STP reports to go on my desk

Speaker 1: 01:31:20 so we don't need you on Saturday. Uh, uh, I mean if you, I don't know. But anyway, but I don't know if you've ever worked for somebody or, or at least seen as like, it's tough to know and then you just eventually tune them out because it's like everything that comes in your mind is some crap ass nonsense. I don't need to focus on, I can't expand my mental energy and effort and listening to your next complaint.

Speaker 2: 01:31:45 Yeah. It's like, it's like the boy who cried wolf. It's like you can't sit there and cry wolf about every single little thing. Cause when, uh, when the wolf actually does call them, like, you know, you gotta be serious about that.

Speaker 3: 01:32:00 So I feel it. I mean, anything else? I think that we ran through all of our highlight stories or this men much, much more than a handful.

Speaker 2: 01:32:11 You know, like I said, there's four chapters, two story, or actually sometimes more than two stories per chapter. Sometimes they'll have like two war stories. Um, you know, so, you know, it's a great book. People who a lot gives you a lot of examples. Um, and I read it right. I rather enjoyed it. It's kind of cool.

Speaker 3: 01:32:31 Yeah, I've been asked from my side. That's about it. Anything else? Anything you didn't like? Anything?

Speaker 2: 01:32:38 Uh, you know, possibly, maybe a, you know, again, I'm not trying to toot my horn or brag about shit. See, I'm a good leader. Maybe. I Dunno, but I, you know, they do give a lot of examples in this book about how to balance each dichotomy, which is it. Um, but in my, in my personal opinion, like it's, it's very hard to teach how to balance. Like not saying the book doesn't do any justice on that. I'm just, I'm just saying like as a good leader out there and they mentioned that good leaders are few and far between. And I think a good reason to that is like, you know, a good leader understands that balance better than anything else. And maybe I'm wanting to believe that that's not something that's taught. I think that's something that you're born with and in a, in an eight born leader. But maybe that's my bias opinion cause I was born that way. Yes, the legal talking. But I just think that that's, that's very hard to teach. Most people don't get me wrong, this book does a great, great job and gives many examples that I think a lot of people can learn from. Awesome. But you know, I do think that some people are born with, with more talent than others. Possibly. Maybe, I don't know. Pinion bias, confirmation bias.

Speaker 3: 01:33:58 Yeah. I see where you're coming from there. Uh, I would, I would go to say that, you know, the people that are born with these attributes, qualities, whatever, there have an easier time grasping, learning, implementing. This is true. I think everybody has the ability to learn. I think everybody has the ability to find the balance. If you wish to find the balance of, to me the first part is recognizing that I am out of balance and I need to find balance. Then you can start to, to, to do things, to learn, to, to role play, to train and do these things, to, to center yourself in each of the areas that you're, you're out of whack. Um, and, and like everything in life, you know, there's guys that are naturally gifted athletes that don't, don't practice as much as the next guy but still achieved the highest level versus a guy that never leaves the practice field. That's just as good as him. Like those things I think apply here as well. You can call me, I'll, I'll be in agreement with you that everybody can improve. Yeah. Even though you weren't born with this stuff, you definitely can become better than you are now.

Speaker 3: 01:35:10 Maybe it's harder for you than the next guy and that's fine. And you just gotta recognize it. I'm not, I'm not as gifted and talented here. I got to work a little harder, but that's okay cause I'm willing to work harder because I don't know. And I definitely think that people can be the best that they can be. You know, you can't compare yourself from Michael Jordan basketball like got to you. I can only be Colby Bryan. You can definitely be better than you were yesterday. Yes. About that all the time. You can definitely improve yourself by 1%. Yes, yes. And it's sometimes that's all it takes. And this book is a good way to get you there. For sure. Yeah. Like my grants were saying that 1%. I mean just think about if you got 1% better every month you'd be a 12% better person, leader, follower, you, you are going to stand out so far from the crowd. Like it's, it's going to blow your mind for show. And then something discovered. I have, I have the book, I got this from Amazon on preorder. Uh, well we discovered listening to audio book and then re and then going through the physical book was there was more to the audio book. Yes.

Speaker 3: 01:36:26 And yeah, that stuff. There were two um, additions in there, right? Yeah. I guess we can call them poems or versus whatever it was that Jocko wrote. Um, it's not in the regular standard book. If you get the Barnes and noble, there's an exclusive version, so make sure you get the exclusive version was on the bottom of it. I know off the pocket people I bottom left is a little like yellow golden tag. This is exclusive dishes in there is the written version of Memorial Day and winning at all costs in. Um, I had the, I got the Google books audio version. You've got the audible, audible and both of them have it. Both of them have it in the audio version as I don't know about any other services, but those two we can confirm. And then if you want those excerpts, get the barns and the exclusive decision, if not the regular book is the same or you can jump in the audio version and awesome into that.

Speaker 3: 01:37:21 Those are really awesome. They're amazing poems. The one home. Yeah. Yeah. The, the Memorial Day. There's a youtube link. I will put that in the show notes that winning at all costs. I could not find any version that wasn't in the audio book or the exclusive addition. So you'll have to do one of those two if you'd like to learn about what that is if between now and then I find that I will put it in the show notes but any, any little two little nuggets that we kind of found we kind of stumbled into in a way.

Speaker 1: 01:37:56 Um, so we got, I got the audio book, we both got the audio book again, we noticed a difference. So yeah, there's kind of a lucky accident I think I think is good information for people to know. I was, I kept going to the back of the book. Like there's something missing where are the endings? So I figured that out and a giveaway, if you're listening to this and it's still march, uh, this should air with a few days left of March. You can get into the healthy eating giveaway that's being put on by Dr. Finish USA if not head over to the search committee that shows nice. Pick me, find out the giveaway we were given out for whatever month it is and the timing. You're watching this and trying to put together a lot of great resources and things that help you guys get along with different areas of your life that we can come across, help you learn, grow, be a better person, be a better leader, whatever it is.

Speaker 1: 01:38:47 We've done this book giveaway before, something that could come up again or different things along those lines. If you're interested in this book and or uh, extreme ownership, they'll be links to those books and little s um, summaries of each book on the show notes. Also, we'll link to Jocko has echelon front instead of leadership. Um, company has a entrance in front offers unmatched solutions in leadership strategy, innovation, safety and risk management, team building and crisis and crisis management, developed improvement in combat. Uh, we'll link to that if you're interested in that for your organization or whatever it is. Also they take, they've taken that echelon front concept that they normally do live trainings in. They have now a video version. It's calledF online. I will link to that as well. It is those trains that they'd been doing for all these years. They've now condensed them into a video format.

Speaker 1: 01:39:42 So individuals or organizations can take this on a larger scale. Uh, if you haven't, you don't listen to the Jocko podcast thing is pretty awesome. He does a lot of a lot of war books and stuff on leadership and things. He talks to an interview with veterans. It's really fun. You can check it out Jocko, podcast.com like I said, I'll link to memorial day. And then also when I was looking around for things about this book, I came across this episode on history channel. Uh, it's, it's about, it's from chapter nine is about some of chapter nine. It's called Charlie platoon. And the story of Mark Lee. I'll link to that if you're interested in watching it. It's a really good episode and kind of talks about that laser story and we were talking about earlier, it's, that is part of that episode in that and that thing there. Anything else you wanted to highlight about the book? Ransomware, anything? They were good, man. Perfect, perfect, perfect. And then this week's challenge, identify your imbalance. Which dichotomy do you struggle with? We challenge you to take a hard look at yourself and find a way to balance the scale leading and following. Focusing and detaching disciplined, not tyrannical. Find a balance between the extremes. With balance you will be able to find and achieve victory.

Speaker 2: 01:41:09 Yeah. And with the final thoughts, just kind of remember that any good solid team or that you work in, you're going to find that any member of that team can step up and be a leader at any time. So being a great leader at any level is important. For those of you that are born with the talent, when you're confident, your small, smart, default aggressive, it's going to come all too easy for you. But just remember that you guys are few and remember to stay humble and to keep that good fight. And even for those of you people that are at the bottom of the totem pole with the least seniority at that means that you're going to have to follow for a little bit, but there's gonna come a day sooner than you think. You're going to have that opportunity to step up and lead. Uh, so just kind of remember those things and just remember the great leaders at any level are important. What you to go out there and make it happen.

Speaker 1: 01:42:07 And if you're looking to help with, you know, your friend, coworkers, organization with developing better leadership, better following and all of these different types of things, share this episode with them. Share the books with them, share the resources to them and you guys can also, you know, support the show where the best way possible. Sharing this episode, liking leaving reviews on apple podcasts and there's different things you guys can follows all week long and the social community and show on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter. You can subscribe on Youtube and your favorite podcast app for past episodes and links to everything we've talked about here today. You guys can visit the social community, not show until next time, keep learning, growing and transforming and the person you want to become.


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