Madison Campbell:

In this episode, I talk with Madison Campbell, CEO of Leda Health. Madison is a trailblazer and sexual assault advocate. After going to college to study epidemiology in space populations, Madison has become a well-seasoned entrepreneur. She’s been a TEDx speaker and led a software development company prior to Leda Health based in Lagos, Nigeria. Today, she is working hard to promote the autonomy and self-actualization of sexual assault survivors through Leda Health by developing and providing resources to help them overcome their difficult trauma.

We talk about her love of Elon Musk, which leads her to a new field of study, which leads her to study overseas, which leads her to be sexually assaulted, which is now leading her to revolutionize how we deal with and collect evidence in sexual assault cases. Yes, I know, what a crazy journey, and we get into all of this. These twists have put her on this path and have taken her to the frontiers of how we deal with evidence collection in sexual assault cases and the resistance to change. How she’s made it through the trauma -PTSD- of sexual assault and what her company is doing to help others make it through. Not just about being a survivor, being a thriver.

Enjoy the episode!

CEO, Leda Health
Madison Campbell is a young sexual assault advocate and technological innovator hoping to revolutionize the ways in which sexual assault is handled on a holistic scale. She is the Chief Executive Officer (CEO) of Leda Health Company, formerly known as MeToo Kits Company.

In 2019, Madison co-founded MeToo Kits Company in Brooklyn, New York in order to create a system meant to solving the issues with how sexual assault is managed. She saw some fundamental problems, such as the facts that in the United States, 77% of sexual assaults are not reported and that there are only 1,231 registered sexual assault nurse examiners. She also considered how survivors feel physically and mentally and the impact this has on reporting.

While the initial idea was an at-home sexual assault examination kit, Madison and her co-founder Liesel realized that much more work must be done in order to resolve the widespread issues. Using her experience with mathematical modeling and epidemiology as well as policy and women’s rights, Madison determined that MeToo Kits Company was ready to evolve.

Thus, from MeToo Kits grew Leda Health Company - the survivor company. Under the new name, the company is seeking to not only revolutionize forensic collection and testing but also to connect survivors with medical professionals and supportive communities to aid them in their recovery process. For sexual assault survivors, the restoration of autonomy and the administration of care is of the utmost importance. This is what Madison, and Leda Health Company, aim to achieve.
Connect survivors with medical professionals and supportive communities
At Leda Health, our mission is to transform existing systems of sexual assault prevention, care, and justice to better serve survivors and the communities in which they live.

Need help or resources email Leda info@leda.co

Resources & Links

Leda Healing Circles

Leda is offering free virtual healing circles for survivors of sexual assault. The groups meet one to two times a week for six weeks with facilitators who have backgrounds in sexology, music, movement, yoga, poetry, drama, and art. This fall, they are offering spoken word groups for male survivors, healing circles for WOC survivors, and hope to create groups for non-binary identified individuals as well.


If you are interested in participating in these groups, please fill out this link: https://form.jotform.com/202385513979162


If you have a support group you'd like us to add please contact us info@TheSocialChameleon.Show


MDMA-Assisted Psychotherapy

Our highest priority project is funding clinical trials of 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) as a tool to assist psychotherapy for the treatment of posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD).

We have also sponsored clinical trials of MDMA-assisted psychotherapy for anxiety associated with life-threatening illness, and for social anxiety in autistic adults, LSD-assisted psychotherapy for anxiety, and medical marijuana for PTSD in veterans of war. We have sponsored observational studies for ibogaine therapy for drug addiction and ayahuasca-assisted treatment for drug addiction and PTSD.

I Am Evidence


I AM EVIDENCE exposes the alarming number of untested rape kits in the United States through a character–driven narrative, bringing much needed attention to the disturbing pattern of how the criminal justice system has historically treated sexual assault survivors.

Why is there a rape kit backlog? What can we do to fix the problem? This film explores these questions through survivors’ experiences as they trace the fates of their kits and re-engage in the criminal justice process. I AM EVIDENCE illuminates how the system has impeded justice while also highlighting those who are leading the charge to work through the backlog and pursue long-awaited justice in these cases.

In this film, we seek to send a clear message to survivors that they matter, that we as a nation will do everything possible to bring them a path to healing and justice, and that their perpetrators will be held accountable for their crimes.

This film is available on HBO MAX



48 Laws of Power

In the book that People magazine proclaimed “beguiling” and “fascinating,” Robert Greene and Joost Elffers have distilled three thousand years of the history of power into 48 essential laws by drawing from the philosophies of Machiavelli, Sun Tzu, and Carl Von Clausewitz and also from the lives of figures ranging from Henry Kissinger to P.T. Barnum.

Some laws teach the need for prudence (“Law 1: Never Outshine the Master”), others teach the value of confidence (“Law 28: Enter Action with Boldness”), and many recommend absolute self-preservation (“Law 15: Crush Your Enemy Totally”). Every law, though, has one thing in common: an interest in total domination. In a bold and arresting two-color package, The 48 Laws of Power is ideal whether your aim is conquest, self-defense, or simply to understand the rules of the game.


More From Robert Green

Dov Charney 1: Labels

Episode Description

Season 4 of StartUp continues with the story of a well-known entrepreneur who built a widely recognized business, lost it all, and is now starting over—from scratch. Over the next several episodes, we’ll hear as this founder makes his second attempt at success, and creates an entirely new company in the shadow of his controversial past. 

The Art Of War

This Unabridged English value reproduction of THE ART OF WAR is wisdom on competition from 2,500 years ago.  It lists the 13 Chapters in bare form for the reader to review and contemplate Sun Tzu’s teachings as it applies to their life.

THE ART OF WAR is divided into 13 chapters covering all the steps of battle, be it in the office or across continents.  Topics include, “Five Essentials for Victory,” “Tactical Dispositions,” “Maneuvering,” and many more.

No student of influence should be without this historic philosophy book on leadership. This Chump Change edition provides a slim volume with full text at an affordable price.

The Obstacle is the Way, Ego is the Enemy & Stillness is the Key

A timeless trilogy of the extraordinary bestsellers The Obstacle is the Way, Ego is the Enemy, and Stillness is the Key by Ryan Holiday, now available for the first time ever in a beautiful boxed set edition.

For more than two thousand years, Stoic philosophy has been the secret operating system of wise leaders, artists, athletes, brilliant thinkers, and ordinary citizens. With his acclaimed, bestselling books The Obstacle is the Way, Ego is the Enemy, and Stillness is the Key, Ryan Holiday has helped bring the Stoicism of Marcus Aurelius, Seneca, and Epictetus to hundreds of thousands of new readers all over the world.

The Obstacle is the Way teaches you how to let go of the things you can't control and turn every new obstacle into an opportunity to get better, stronger, and tougher. Ego is the Enemy teaches you how to overcome and master the greatest obstacle in life--our insatiable ego. Stillness is the Key teaches you why slowing down is essential to charging ahead.

This boxed set offers the Stoic insights and exercises from all three books featuring a vast array of stories and examples, from literature to philosophy to history.

If you or anyone you know are seeking inner peace, clarity, and effectiveness in our crazy world, this collection will help immensely and makes a great gift. It will help you find the serenity, self-knowledge, and resilience you need to live well.

Start your journey in the art of living.


More From Ryan Holiday 

Show notes and transcripts powered with the help of Castmagic.

Episode Transcriptions Unedited, Auto-Generated.

Tyson (00:00:15):

Welcome to the Social Chameleon Show where it's our goal to help you learn, grow and transform the person you have become today. I'm talking to Madison Campbell, CEO of Leda Health. Madison is a trailblazer and sexual assault advocates. After going to college to study epidemiology in science populations, Madison has become a well seasoned entrepreneur. She'd been a TEDx speaker and a lead software developer and a lead for a software development company. Prior to later, based in Nigeria today, she's working hard to promote the anatomy and self actualization of sexual assault survivors through lead to health, by developing and providing resources to help them overcome their difficult trauma. Be aware. Do we do talk a lot about the sexual assault type things trauma she went through as well. That's really what our company is about is helping people through sexual assault and trauma. If the one thing I learned really through this episode is please do find some type of support group system, therapist, something like that.

Tyson (00:01:10):

Please understand this is not your fault. This didn't have to happen to you and please absolutely go find somebody to help you through the situation whether it's her company or not. There's so many things out there. There's lot of resources, please do check the show notes for things we have linked for you there. I really had a great time talking with her. I really learning a lot about this industry and the roadblocks that really have come up for them with trying to help people do this. And it's really kind of disheartening to learn about lot, lot of great things here. I think this is great for people to if you've never been a victim of it, of sexual assault, it's great to know kind of what's going on and, you know, being able to help people around you, maybe be some type of somebody to lean on or somebody to help point people in a great direction. Without further ado, let's talk with Madison, Madison, welcome to the social community. So thanks for jumping on and reaching out. I look forward to our conversation today.

Madison (00:02:05):

I look forward to being here. Thank you so much for having me.

Tyson (00:02:09):

So I guess I'm gonna start maybe a little different place than we maybe anticipated, but so reading through your stuff and whatnot you studied epidemiology in space populations. Can, can you talk me through this real quick here?

Madison (00:02:21):

Yeah. Yeah. So I was fascinated and I am fascinated by the human being that is Elon Musk between you and I and all the listeners out there. I do have a crush on Elon Musk is more than welcome to reach out to you and, and give him the phone numbers we can exchange. Yeah. Pass it along. So, you know, he did a presentation early when I was in college about the first man mission to Mars and I thought, Oh my God, this is the future. Right. I I'm kind of a gate, you know, Saifai has always been my thing. So being able to see these images of, you know, what things are gonna look like and how we're going to get over there. It was so fascinating to me. And my background was in studying public health. Right. so nothing related to, you know, aeronautics, nothing related to space or anything like that or physics, but I became so fascinated by what he was doing.

Madison (00:03:20):

And I was more fascinated by the fact he was like, we'll put a hundred people in this chip, we'll put them to Mars and then, you know, they'll go over. And, and my mind started going, okay, well, a hundred people, you know, they've never interacted with each other. And you, you put them in an isolated, you know, bile, right? Like they can't move, they, you know, are stuck with each other, what is going to happen. And so I became super, super fascinated with doing population based health or epidemiology in space population. And it really is like a subject that is unexplored because there has never been more nothing. Right. It's very hypothetical. And so, you know, what I became interested in after talking to some advisors and mentors from NASA is the virus Epstein BARR, which is most commonly known as mononucleosis.

Madison (00:04:12):

So, you know you go through a quarantine period when you are to go up to space to make sure you have no bacterial diseases or, you know, any other diseases that you could spread or get sick. And they've oftentimes had to bring people down because they, you know, have been sick on the ISS. And so what I became interested in is a virus, right? You know, a virus can go undetected you know, it can be a dormant virus and you can only be reactivated under certain circumstances. Mononucleosis are Epstein, BARR, virus is one of those fires. So Epstein BARR virus in commercial space populations, when you add in micro gravity, high cortisol levels, AK lots of stress, as well as, you know galactic cosmic radiation from the sun then can actually reactivate ebb. And what most people don't know about ABB is not only does it content on a nucleolus and make you really tired for years on end, but it can also be found in cancer. So Burkitt's lymphoma and, and I've seen Barbara. She was actually the first ever virus found in cancer. And so what's really interesting to me. And what I was predicting is if we were to send people on three year long missions to Mars, right. One and a half years there when you have years back then my prediction is that they would get have EBV be reactivated and started to cause cancer. And I know that's really morbid and crazy, but that was super interested in.

Tyson (00:05:42):

So so that's commonly referred to as mano, is that correct? And then from my understanding, once you get it, you always have it in your body.

Madison (00:05:50):

Yes. And that's exactly why I studied it, right. Because 99.8% of the entire human population already has been exposed to EBV. So it's inside of you, it's inside of me, it's inside of my boyfriend and it, you know, all these different people. So it's not something that is bacterial where you can take your drive to pics. We would need a vaccine and we have not created a vaccine for ABB yet.

Tyson (00:06:12):

Yeah, I got it. And I guess typically people who are associated with the kissing disease, I got to talking to somebody, I don't know who it was. I was talking to. I was at the, my army reserve training for the weekend. And I don't know how many hundreds of people I talk to and the next I dunno, whatever was two days later, I got sick. That was the worst sickness I have ever had in my life. I was literally eating Vicodin. Like they were candy. I could not get rid of this blistering headache I had and the doctor didn't test for that. I forgot what he had been initially tested for. And I just chewed through a whole bottle of Vicodin and I have a high tolerance for payments to begin with. So that just so I went back in and then they said, you know, this is not, I forgot. I think he's not at that strip. If I remember correctly, it was many years ago, but yeah,

Madison (00:07:00):

Easily misdiagnosed with Lyme disease. A lot of people think that it's Lyme disease and really is ETV.

Tyson (00:07:10):

So I think he, but anyway, that I would not wish that disease on my worst enemy, that was the worst sickness. I don't get sick very often at all, but I mean, just the blistering headed. I can't imagine being in a space suit on some distant planet with the blistering headache I had. I just, I can't imagine. That's very interesting when I came across this as like, how, how do you study empathy, analogy and space and what an interesting story. I don't get the Elon Musk fascination. I am not fascinated with him. But I know, I know people that are,

Madison (00:07:43):

I mean, I just, I think it's, I think it's interesting for anyone to dream that big. Right. I dream in really, I come up with crazy ideas and, and dream really big. And I like people that dream really big and have crazy ideas. You know, sometimes the execution, when you go for a crazy idea does not always work, but the fact that you are able to put that out into the world and start, it means that maybe you're not the one who can do it, but somebody else, you know, will be the one that can take it to the finish.

Tyson (00:08:14):

Yeah. I love that aspect of the things he thinks of the thing that dreams he dreams and the things that sound crazy. And a lot of things that we've come to accustomed to sounded crazy at some point in time. And like, I mean, with space X and, you know, bringing rockets back was something we never thought we could ever do. The rockets are gone and that's it eight $87 million rockets gone off into space. We'll never see it again. And, and bringing those back. That's a huge, you know, a feat. So sometimes when I think about things he's doing, I think, you know, whatever, billions of dollars you spent on this, I really think we could really work on this planet and not worry about going somewhere else right now. That's how I kind of think about it. But I understand what he's doing. These moonshots are what they call and different things like that really do spark things like the space you know, revolution we had when we were trying to get to the moon, all the things that came out of that, all the chemicals and the metals we created and all these things, we have no idea. The things that are in our daily lives that came out of these NASA projects and all these things. Yeah. Those things are amazing. I, I definitely get that aspect of it.

Madison (00:09:15):

And I think they, interbreed a lot of different areas of science that we didn't think about. Like ask her epidemiology is not a thing. If anything, I'm hopefully going to be the one that coined the term. But but I, it will be a thing because if you put, whether it's a moon or Mars, if you put multiple, you know, amounts of people, it will become a population which from a public health perspective, you will have to start identifying what happens when there's a large population and everyone's genomes are different. We all act differently. Right?

Tyson (00:09:45):

Yeah. And so many things we probably don't even think about, you know with the lack of sunshine that we're going to be getting out there, being suits all the time or any of these different types of domes that maybe have to have a certain type of tint on them to keep us from this solar radiation. We're not used to in all these different kinds of things who knows scurvy is going to pop up and all these things we never thought it would be before that space diseases. I can definitely see those being really big problems.

Madison (00:10:07):

Yeah. I mean, yeah. It's, it's, it's funny when I tell people my background, sometimes, you know, I go through a lot of calls each day and people will ask me how I got to where I am and they don't mention that. Cause I'm like, they're going to think I'm really weird. Like, I'm like a big, like I took like all this fascination with Saifai as a kid and playing all these like simulation games and then made it a reality. And but you know, that that's part of what, you know, the reason why I'm here today is I come up with crazy big ideas. And when people tell me, Hey, they're too crazy, too big. I should go and do them more.

Tyson (00:10:43):

Yeah. Challenge accepted. That's what I like to think. I can't do it. Or you want to watch me.

Madison (00:10:49):

Exactly. I hate that. You know, I have so much spite energy. So I used to say when I was, you know, in high school, right. That the most productive times for me were when I was broken up with, so, you know, I would have this relationship, you know, I love you. It's a better, et cetera, young love, right. Broken up with, I would be like, I'm going to teach you, I'm going to work hard and it'd be like hotter. And so I used to always say the best way to get me to work harder. It's wasted, you know, pretend to love me, then break my heart. And now, you know, I'll probably be the next Elon Musk after my break up.

Tyson (00:11:28):

Well, I'm gonna give you some motivation now, everything you're doing sucks and you're not going to succeed at all. And that's how it's going to be.

Madison (00:11:34):

Damn fuck. Okay. Great. Get back to where

Tyson (00:11:41):

Well then that kind of brings us back around to this really seemingly massive uphill battle you have taken on. And how did you get to this [inaudible] and, and we can kind of, we're going to get into this different stuff and it really kind of seems to centralize around sexual assault. How did we get there? I mean, from space scifi seemed like everything you loved about this world for the whole new path onto something completely else.

Madison (00:12:08):

Yeah. So, so Lita health was created out of, you know, something that became very personal to me that I thought I could ignore, and that was my own sexual assault. So when I was a junior in college, I was studying abroad at university of Edinburgh. A, you know, I, I was there for about a month and I started meeting a bunch of folks, tried to make friends, you know, try to get together you know, for studying and things like that. And I was, I was new, right. I didn't, I didn't grow up in Scotland. I didn't know anyone. So it was difficult for me to make friends and they completely different atmosphere. And so while I was over there, I made friends with a guy who I thought was great friends with me. And one night he sent me a message at 2:00 AM.

Madison (00:12:55):

You know, he had been at a bar and he didn't look right. So he went to a bar and he was drinking a lot, you know, kept trying to hit on women, bring them home and he ended up failing. Right. and so I, myself, as this new friend, I said, you know, it's not you, you're an amazing guy. Like, you're awesome. You're so great. You know, everything you do, it's just, it's bad night. Right. It's no problem. And so I didn't realize when I did that, then he also thought, okay, well that means maybe, you know, like I'm the person who's know. And so so it was 2:00 AM and I was still awake and, you know, he kind of went silent on the phone and then I heard a knock at my door. And I was in a dormitory at the time and, you know, he came in and he forced himself on me.

Madison (00:13:44):

And it was very scary to me because, you know, for a long time I thought it was my fault. Right. So I thought about the fact that I answered his messages at 2:00 AM and the fact that maybe I did lead him on. Right. And the fact that maybe I did, you know, think that my behavior was actually why he, you know, sexually assaulted me. And it took me a long time for me to realize that that wasn't the case. It wasn't my fault. And so, you know, space epidemiology and this whole path towards academia while it was really great. And I definitely wanted to go back there. You know, I was a little bit too early, you know, with a lot of the research that I wanted to conduct and what really came to the forefront of my mind was what happened with my sexual assault.

Madison (00:14:29):

And I started dealing with my trauma in a way where I started to finally realize because of so many other women speaking up about their sexual assault, that it wasn't quite right. And that this in fact happens to a lot of people and the same exact situation that happened to me, you know, happened to other folks. So, you know, I finally got the courage to up to tell my parents, to tell my significant other. And I was met with so much love, right. And, and a lot of crying, but a lot of love, right. A lot of crying, but a lot. And so I decided to really look into why don't people report their sexual assault. Why didn't I report my sexual assault? And, and to be fair, I'm pretty much like as privileged as it comes. Right. I have a good family that believes in me, you know, that if I would have needed a lawyer, they would have hired one.

Madison (00:15:23):

If I would have needed, you know, to go to the police, the police would have believed me. I am, you know, I am a white woman in America. Like I, I have a lot of privilege, you know, and I'm decided not to report. And that made me start thinking, okay, if a privileged white girl, you know, couldn't report, Holy moly, there is no justice for so many other folks. Right. Right. And so I wanted to use that privilege to try to do something good and to try to create a way for folks, you know, to collect forensic evidence within the comfort of their home, which can be the difference of, Hey, this actually happened to me. I'm not crazy. I have this piece of evidence, no. To not actually being able to ever get justice. And so we created the first ever at home sexual assault, evidence, collection, kit and that idea has sparked a lot of controversy. Yeah. And I mean, how much have you read? Like, I need to know, like, it's where, where did he starting at?

Tyson (00:16:25):

I try to come into this as a novice, so I can ask questions and come from what seemed like I was debating back and forth, how much I want it to kind of get into it. And I thought that if I stayed as novice, I could, I think I would be able to come from the mindset of a lot of people listening. And so that's where I'm at right now. I know of things. I mean, being a 40 something year old male in America, I kind of know things that happen. So that's about where I'm at.

Madison (00:16:52):

It was, it was crazy. So we came up with this idea and what we're basically doing is taking how easy 23 and me is. And, you know, being able to allow a sexual assault survivor to capture evidence in their home home that idea before it was even a product, you know, out there you know, for reference our product has not launched. It's not in the hands of any consumers. We decided to send them email to college campuses because college campuses are a cesspool of, of sexual assault. Unfortunately you know, one in four college students will be sexually assaulted. And in some colleges it's even one in three. So you basically have like a 7% chance each year of being sexually assaulted if you go to a four year institution. So I sent a message to Michigan state university home to layer Nasser, you know, home to hiding sexual for years and years on end.

Madison (00:17:52):

They got extremely angry that I sent them a letter saying, Hey, I think you guys need rape kits. And meanwhile, by the way, at that point I was donating them the kids as well, right. They sent my letter to the attorney general of Michigan who issued me a cease and desist letter the next morning, and what went into the press with it. Calling me names like profiting off of the me too movement profiting off of sexual assault survivors, et cetera, et cetera. He then sent my letter to every single attorney general in the country. And within one month we had 16 cease and desist letters, five subpoenas 16 members of Congress that reached out to us as well as two bills introduced to ban us all within one month of starting the company. Yeah, in the press. We've been mentioned over a thousand times in the press. Back in late September, we were headlining with Trump's impeachment, Bernie Sanders and DIY rape. So it was insane at the peak of it. We were being mentioned 600 to 900 times in television, broadcasting and radio every single day.

Tyson (00:19:08):

That's insane. So I have several questions. I want to kind of go explore it on here. First, first of all, I mean, what's the problem? Why do people want to stop this? I feel like this is something that should be helping

Madison (00:19:22):

Well. There's one big problem. And it said I'm a for profit company. So we have gotten multitude of different, you know, statements saying that, you know, capital is bad. You know, capitalistic tendencies are bad for profit, bad profiting off of sexual assault survivors bad, even though I'm a sexual assault survivor where female found a company, you know, where minority owned, right. You know, my, my cofounders from Kathmandu, Nepal, she worked in helping sex traffic victims, you know, get, get the help they need, right. We're, we're this group of sexual assaults survivors yet. Apparently we are trying to profit off of the meeting movement, you know, trying to profit off of sexual assault. The attorney general for it's either Virginia or North Carolina called me. And I quote, I dirty scammer trying to make a quick buck. I can't wait to get that on a tee shirt one day.

Madison (00:20:19):

It'll be true, but that is definitely one of the biggest things. And then there's two others. So one is, and they don't think it will be admissible in court. However, during COVID sexual assault survivors in certain jurisdictions were turned away from hospitals, which means that we've actually had at home kits used and we've had the district attorney police and sexual assault examiners all work together on something called the Monterey protocol. And those sexual assaults survivors were able to test within the comfort of their own home. It took 15 minutes versus a four to eight hour long timeframe. And those sexual assaults and drivers were able to get help in the time of COVID where they would have been turned away. And the district attorney in those jurisdictions went on record to say that there's no chain of custody or disability, which is great.

Madison (00:21:14):

That was something that people were very, very concerned about. Early on when we started the company, which is a valid here, it is a totally valid fear. Although, you know, even if we wouldn't have set court precedent during COVID, we have found, you know, hundreds of cases where self collected evidence has been admissible. You know, whether it's a bedsheet or handkerchief or, you know, semen, right. Or, or a dress. Right. I said that all the time. Right. I'm like, you want to know about that? Something that brought down someone it's the Monica Lewinsky dress, right?

Tyson (00:21:51):

What seven or eight years old at the time or something like that.

Madison (00:21:54):

Exactly. Yeah. So, so yeah. I mean self collected evidence, is it new? Is someone creating a privatized company to do this new? Yes. Right. And we frankly make them look bad. Right. We, the average time it takes for the government to test these kids is two years. We can test it in two weeks. Right. The backlog is massive. 200,000 kids currently in the backlog. Yeah.

Tyson (00:22:23):

And so a lot of these cases, we'll probably never even see the light of day.

Madison (00:22:26):

No, no. I mean speak about the home state of Michigan. They lost 11,000 kids in a Detroit warehouse that, you know, they found randomly one day 11,000 kids. Right. So yeah. We make them look bad. We make them look bad because we are going to do it better, faster, more efficient and cheaper than they ever could. And we don't sell to survivors and we sell to institutions. So we go to a university and we say, yeah, we say to the university, Hey, you guys need this. It needs to be something that you can protect your students with. Let's bring it and let's give it out to the student body. Right. So the students AK the survivors are not the ones paying the cost. We are putting the burden on the cost on the system itself.

Tyson (00:23:11):

Just like if they were to be offering free contraceptives or something like that, along along the lines. Right. So, I mean, so now that I'm thinking about it, so let's say you've got a, whatever, a bunch of bags of them sitting out you know, a service counter, whatever your dorm down at the desk or whatever. And a girl can walk downstairs in the morning, grab one, go up to her room and then kind of secretively, you know, it feeling a sense of maybe comfort, doing the things, going through the checklist and compiling all the evidence she has. And then really that sounds like a nice safe environment. This person could be in. Cause like you're saying earlier, maybe you only want to maybe admit that this happened. Maybe you don't want to believe it being, or maybe this is my fault, but you could discretely go downstairs and just grab something or, you know, walk somewhere, whatever it be, have a friend, pick something up for you that, you know, when you kind of break it down and now that's a really interesting idea. And it's probably as you guys fight this battle, it sounds like you could really probably have a lot more people that never would have received help.

Madison (00:24:10):

Yeah. I mean, we're not trying to replace the hospital. We can never replace the hospital, but we're trying to create a solution for the 70 to 90% of people that don't go to the hospital right now have no other option. You know, I really hate the world in which we live in, which says that we have to do it in a black and white way. Right. Either do it this way or you don't do anything at all. I mean, the question I have for state attorney generals is okay, if people don't want to go to the hospital or go to the police and get one of these kids done, what do you want them to do? Roll away their evidence row away, the clothes that they were wearing, throw away the bedsheet, because that is what you're telling them to do right now without an option.

Tyson (00:24:52):

Right? Yeah, absolutely. So it's, you know, it kind of seems like for your folks company, this culvert thing, maybe it was a blessing where you guys can start to have this proof of concept, any situations where you don't want to be at a hospital, you don't want to be at a clinic. You don't want to be at urgent care right now. Maybe cause you're scared or maybe because the facilities are full. What have you guys seen in that, you know, other than you've talked about this really helped you guys advance this cause, or not only that maybe even found problems or solutions that you guys never even thought of, that you guys have been able to kind of address

Madison (00:25:24):

COVID has been amazing and she's great. You know, why COVID has been amazing. We've realized that the government has a really bad job at testing, right? Whether it's, well, the testing or sexual assault texting, we do a really bad job. And you know, Trump went out early on in talking about COVID and was like, you know where's she's going to stop testing. Right? Well, he stopped testing and then the cases will go to, yeah, if you stop testing cases will go down. I mean, in the government, I believe now it's thinking about it the same way. If we just don't test the rape kits, then they've got them in, you know, there's not right going on. Right. So there has been a culture shift in America, which has been helpful because people are finally waking up to the fact that there are huge inefficiencies and that you look at like bill and Melinda Gates who put all this money into, you know, probably going to be creating the vaccine, right.

Madison (00:26:24):

For Kobe and all these other privatized companies that are coming in to help test and create services. You know, when the government does not have the resources, privatized companies come in to fill the gap. Right. And so the culture shifts in America is in, in my way, helping, because we've been able to fill that gap, right. We are, we are filling the gap with a much needed resource and that the government can not currently provide. I also think that it has been really helpful context setting, you know, since, you know, the riots happened. Right. So people finally woke up to, and when I talk to people, I'm talking like investors, right? Like the stakeholders, you know, people finally waking up to their mass injustices, you know in the police system, you know, there are a lot of sexual assaults that happen amongst them. These members are police members to those incarcerated, you know, as well as in the prison system, right. There are these power dynamics, which we need to look at and we really need to shift in order to make real change in America.

Tyson (00:27:25):

Well, I mean, I'm glad that this has been something that's really helped you folks along. I really see, you know the potential of something like this, really helping a lot of people. I know. I think I, I know it's something, but I hear a lot that so many cases go on report is so many people don't want to go to, to the hospital or whatever to get tested. What what are the things that you guys are teaching people to kind of maybe get away from the stigma or maybe the story of blaming themselves and, and along these lines, how did you maybe even recover from that? And what are you guys teaching?

Madison (00:28:02):

Yeah. I mean, the, the words that we use are very important. So, you know, the words that we try to utilize in all of our, you know, messaging and branding and educational materials is stop using the word victim, right. You're, it's not, you're not a victim of anything, you're a survivor. Right. You know, we don't really say you're a victim of cancer. We say you're a survivor of cancer. Right. Right. And I think this idea of victimization is really dangerous, you know, saying, Oh, you know, Oh, I'm so sorry about what happened to you. Oh, you know, it's going to be okay rather than saying, you know, what, what happened to you does not have to define who you are or your narrative. In fact, they can be, it doesn't even have to be one chapter of your life. It could be one paragraph or one sentence.

Madison (00:28:53):

And what we're trying to teach folks is, you know, the most dramatic thing that could have possibly happened to you does not have to define who you are as a person. It does not have to define your relationships. It does not have to define your career path. It defined mine. Right. I couldn't get justice. So I'm putting my life back into helping other people get justice, but you know, the words that we're trying to use and the branding and the messaging that we're trying to say is, you know, how do we get people on that human journey to realizing that they're not a victim, they're a survivor. Right. and in fact, they're thriving because of what happened, right. Finding a silver lining in something that is, you know, really, really bleak, to be honest,

Tyson (00:29:37):

What, what are the, the techniques or the therapies or the, the, the steps or whatever it is that you guys are using, maybe a couple of things you can share with the listeners out there, and maybe they're there, or somebody that's struggling with this. They can start them either, you know, Googling the right things are going to see the right type of person. If you kind of get what I'm going after with that,

Madison (00:29:56):

I completely understand. So we've started support groups during COVID where, and, and anyone listening, if you are a survivor of sexual assault, our support groups are completely free. And, and happy to share that, but yeah,

Tyson (00:30:10):

I can make that in the show notes for everybody.

Madison (00:30:13):

Amazing. Yeah. So during our support groups, they're eight weeks long and we do four hour sessions each week. So two hours on Sunday, two hours on Monday. And what we found to be really amazing is actually using the combination of music, dance movement, even sound therapy and sex positive therapy. So we kind of do a mixed bag approach where we bring in therapists who are really talented in a bunch of different areas of therapy that don't even necessarily make you talk about yourself. Right. It's not in part of healing. You don't have to heal immediately by talking about it. Right. and I think that's what a lot of survivors don't know are folks that have been afflicted by this or anything else, you know, finding healing and coping mechanisms can happen before you even started talking about what happened to you, whether it's PTSD or sexual assault or something else. And so taking a sound bath, if you're familiar with like what sound bath are in a different yeah.

Tyson (00:31:14):

You want to maybe just quickly run through that. So people that don't know.

Madison (00:31:17):

Yeah. So it's, you know, a way of using different sounds to really calm, help you meditate, you know, help you, you know, really kind of center yourself and thinking about the world that you're living in right now. And, and I find it to be really helpful. A lot of the sexual assault survivors find it to be very helpful in trying to bring you back to the present, right. Bringing you back to right now, you know, keep you online so you can continue to make it through every single day. Right. we find movement and dance there P is super important during COVID too. You know, I, I sit in my desk all day. I go from like desk to bed to like sometimes standing, but not really. And that's a huge problem. And that, that also creates a lot of depression. So during this time of COVID or any time, you know, being able to work your trauma out through dancing and movement, and actually physically, you know, getting out of your body a little bit, we find it's really, really helpful.

Tyson (00:32:15):

What about psychedelics MVMA psilocybin, wasta, and these types of things. Have you guys experimented with those types of things? I know they're really helpful with PTSD. I, I, I assume this is something similar to PTSD, if not right in the same realm,

Madison (00:32:28):

It's definitely PTSD. So we have not done any psilocybins. But I have I have for sure. So I have, I have done both MTMA mushrooms and acid. I have not done Iowasca and I know that there's a bunch of other plant based therapies. So I think it really depends on the person, right. So I am a very anxious person, right. Like when I smoke pot, I somehow think that there's police at my doors. Like if I hear a siren, like, I'll be like, they're coming, they're coming to arrest me with my, like one gram of pot. Like, Oh my God, they're going to get my joint, you know, like my mind goes. And so whenever I've done mushrooms and acid in the past, my mind has gone like very weird anxiety place. Where, so this is my, so my one asset story because I didn't really take it after I had this experience. So I went to burning man. And as soon as I got into the Playa, I was, I was given acid and I, you know, didn't really have much food or much water in me at that point. Like had been traveling all day to, to the middle of the black rock city. Have you ever been to burning man?

Tyson (00:33:51):

No, I really, I I'm really, really evaluating going. I shunned it for awhile. I was like, I'm not into this. And the more I've learned about this stuff, the more I kind of need to go,

Madison (00:33:59):

You should go. It's great. So anyways, so I started thinking everything was a simulation, so I went straight into simulation theory. So, you know, the Stephen King novel under the dome? No. Okay. So Stephen King writes, it's like, you know, whore, you know, kind of under the dome. And basically it's like, you know, you're living in this big dome and you can see like the crystals and you're stuck and you can't get out of the job. Right. and so I was walking around the desert and it kind of, isn't a dome, like the way that it's positioned. And so I'm walking into the middle of this and I look up and I swear that I can see like the crystal. It was, and I'm like, we are in a simulation. Every, everybody is a simulation. This is the matrix. You know, that is where my mind went.

Madison (00:34:48):

So God bless, you know, folks that can use it in a positive way to really heal that I would probably spend like hours and hours being like, tell me this, isn't a matrix where it's the red pill, the blue pill. I want to take it. I want to figure it out. However MTMA has been net positive for me. So every single time that I've taken MGMA, I figured out more things about myself. I figured out, you know, what, not the meaning of life. That's a really shame, big thing to figure out. But I figured out, you know, who I loved, which was a big thing. Right? And in figuring out who you love, you also figure out who you should spend time with the good people, the bad people. And it has helped me make a lot of very big decisions on people which, you know, end up allowing you to make bigger decisions in the world because the people you surround yourself with are the people that can help you get further in life.

Madison (00:35:46):

Right. and can, can, you know, re help you out. Right. I, I would take him DMA and call my parents and be like, I love you. You've helped so much thank you for supporting me or my friends, you know, and, and things like that. So I really want to see in terms of pharmaceuticals, us figuring out a way to do MD EMA or MDA, which apparently is know version of MGMA without as much side effects. Because I think being able to put yourself in a very positive, like, like net positive mind frame is going to help a lot of people actually to realize, you know, it isn't your fault and that you love yourself and you love the people around you, and that you can be that happy. You know, if you kind of put that mindset forward.

Tyson (00:36:32):

Yeah, no, I've heard I'm very interested in these psychedelic drugs or therapies, whatever you want to call them. There's so much research and stuff I've heard about and read about, especially in this PTSD type realm the miraculous kind of recoveries and things people have been able to make. And if there's any, any Avenue of PTSD that is something that can really help people. I think sexual assault is one of those. Especially, it seems like through listening to your story and all the other stories this victim slash survivor blaming, that happens a lot. And I think being able to disassociate yourself with that and be able to look at that and say, you know this is not my fault and all those things. I think these drugs have a lot of promises, a lot of good research finally coming out now.

Tyson (00:37:20):

There's so many different people behind this projects and things. I think there's a lot, a lot of good that's going to come from this. I think if you're interested, I would spend some time looking at this. Tim Ferris, if you guys aren't familiar with him, he's been doing a lot of research in this area, as long as some other people into this different thing. I think John Hopkins, I think has a new institution now. They just created for the psychedelic research maps, the organization. They've got a lot of great resources about if you're struggling with this, I think it's something that could help.

Madison (00:37:47):

I think. So what I've heard about it, and what I do think is a really good thing is it opens you up to actually being able to talk about the trauma. Right. so it, it almost unleashes things that you forgot about. So even in my mom, you know, I talk about how it does, like give me some anxiety, but you know, that is really positive if you are able to work through it. Right.

Tyson (00:38:11):

And I think you need somebody there to help you work through this. This is from my, how I understand it. And they taking it on your own with some friends. There's one side of that, but taking it in a set and setting with a therapist that says, okay, you're anxious, let's talk through this as walk throughs, explore that, dig down into it. I think that's really where it's the power is lies.

Madison (00:38:29):

I think so too, because every time I was with friends, they were all having like such an amazing time and they're doing this. And I went into my trauma honestly, and I didn't really have like a shaman right. To show me the way or a psychologist to lead me out of that age.

Tyson (00:38:46):

Yeah. Like I said, that's seems like the key there is having somebody that knows what they're doing and talking about is really where the therapeutic benefits definitely come from. And please go seek a professional. If you're interested in this don't be out exploring, I've heard a lot of bad things about people. If you don't know if you know, this can really unleash a lot of mental health problems, if you have so please do do this responsibly people out there listening and

Madison (00:39:15):

Yeah. And always test you can buy a drug test kit on Amazon. You should always know what is inside. Anything, whether it, you know, is somebody you trust or somebody new, you should be able to test it and understand what you're ingesting. And that is super important. I mean, there, there are so many times where, you know, folks will lace, you know cocaine and things like that. And a lot of these drugs, especially DNA is often laced with cocaine and that is horrible.

Tyson (00:39:46):

Yeah. Anything to stretch it and make it a little bit extra money. Yeah. That's unfortunately, part of getting these things on the streets. Yeah. It's definitely it's definitely tough. I kinda want it to circle back to your, your journey and maybe as a, as a way of helping people through their journey, how did you stop blaming yourself and really start to say, you know, to set yourself off in a different direction, what was the tool or resources? What did you use or what did you do to, to jump out of that mindset and get away from that story?

Madison (00:40:18):

Yeah, I have to think so. I mean, so it really all started with my, my last relationship. So my last relationship that I was in and I was in that relationship whenever I was sexually assaulted. I it wasn't that great of a relationship. It just, there was a lot of, there was a lot of psychological, you know, maneuvers to hurt each other. I think on both my end and his end. Right. And, you know, during that time, I didn't feel like I was in a comfortable space. Right. I didn't feel, I felt like if I, I told him right, this is why it took me so long to tell him that he would have thought I cheated on him. And that I was, you know, I, I left him for someone else while I was studying abroad.

Madison (00:41:19):

That was not the case right. At all. And you know, when I finally started realizing that it was an, it was a bad relationship. I had a lot of friends tell me that it was a bad relationship and help me get out of the relationship. And, you know, during that time he was so nice to my friends and my family. Right. So, you know, he would act in a very certain way to me. And then in front of friends and family be a very different human being. And so I started to feel like I maybe was the crazy one actually, right. Like, Oh, I'm just, you know, I'm, this is not my fault. It's his fault. You know, this is something that if no one else is seeing, it must not be happening. And so a way that it was kind of like my trauma repeating itself, right.

Madison (00:42:12):

Oh, it's my fault. Right. This is, you know, I'm the one creating the damage. And so what I started doing was I started collecting evidence, right. And this kind of goes into like, why, you know, did evidence collection too, but I would start recording him, yelling at me, you know, like our confrontations and things like that, where I, or something like that or that voice because it was, it was, it just got to that point. Right. and I would send them to friends and family because, and they would be astounded by what they heard and just completely astounded. And I would take screenshots of text messages and I would send them off, you know, that were incredibly rude. I mean, I still have, I S I still have them favorited in my phone because, you know, sometimes I like to look back and realize how far I've come and why, you know, I've been able to get out of a bad situation. I mean, you know, I think this is important for our listeners to know that, like, this is so when I, when I finally ended things,

Speaker 3 (00:43:17):


Madison (00:43:21):

He wrote me a text message that said, this is your future. You will bang a bunch of dudes in New York city because you were, and always will be prostitute. Then when poppy passes, which is my grandfather and he, he did pass away. And we'll never be there for him until he dies. You'll get some stupid ass tattoo, like a flower to commemorate your relationship. And you used him for, and you will fall apart. You'll pursue, proceed to do some whack shit like lesbian form, and then become a prostitute. Or you will bang people for their money and connections never accomplish anything yourself. You abandoned me. And I want nothing to do with you. You know, which at that point, I'm like, I'm good. I'm getting new. But you know, that it was, it was a lot of, it was a lot of things like that over and over again.

Madison (00:44:09):

And I sent them to my friends and my family. I mean, one night I got in my car and I drove to New York city alone because I shut off my phone. And, you know, this is something I don't tell often, but I didn't, I was naturally the one to tell my mother about my sexual assault. So when I was ending my relationship with my, my former significant other as a way to get me to stay with him, he called my mother to let her know about my sexual assault. So I had told him like a week or so, you know, once things were ending. And I finally felt like I was getting the courage to leave him, you know, to go, I had all this evidence, right. In case he were to do something crazy. And, you know, as I was leaving, he told my mother about my sexual assault, which was really hard, but that's, that was kinda what I needed in a way to start talking about it and to start opening up the conversation.

Madison (00:45:08):

But it took so much if I did not have the support that I have now, I don't think that I could have done what I did. I, I, I don't know. I probably would be married to him, you know, I mean, just would've dealt with it, you know, and, and wouldn't have said anything else, but you know, it wasn't evidence collection. It was sending it to a third party. So I could feel like I was not the crazy one and that there was, you know, evidence out there that I'm, you know, the one that's just sitting here and receiving all this pain that allowed me to move forward with my life and allowed me to get a lot of healing. And so that's why I think evidence collection is so important. It allows you to not feel like it's your fault because you have you've evidenced, so it's not your fault.

Madison (00:45:57):

And you might not believe that it's not your fault, but if you're able to revisit it or have somebody else look at it, they're going to see it. And they're going to say, Madison Pentagon, not yours, right? Like that, that you did not deserve that. And so that, even though I never went through a court system and I never did anything, and I never planned to do anything, you know, for, for the things that happen in that relationship, I know what happened and I have proof of it. And it makes me feel like, you know, that part of my story is closed. And I've been able to get closure. And I finally reconciled that it is not my fault for what happened.

Tyson (00:46:35):

Well, thank you for sharing that. I didn't think it would help for some people not to justify this person's behavior, but it also sounds like that person's got a lot of baggage and, and hate and, and things that probably happened to them. Is that true?

Madison (00:46:49):

Yeah. He was cheated on, you know, before the, his relationship with me. So we had a lot of trust problems. And so, and, and I think he had a, he had a lot of PTSD as well. I mean, he served in the military and had, you know, a lot of PTSD from deployments. And, and I just hope that he's okay today. Right. I, I wish nothing but the best for him, honestly. Like it, it was a lot of harm for both of us. I think there was a lot of emotions on both ends. But you know, at the end of the day, I have moved on with my life. I've created a new chapter. I gotten stronger and better. And, you know, I hope that he was able to deal with a lot of his PTSD and trust issues as well

Tyson (00:47:38):

For the people that don't have the support system. You have to help you through this. What are, what should they be doing out there? The ones that are in this early stage that you were, and maybe doesn't have the, the, the friends or family behind them, or to support them, or to believe them even sometimes, what are they, what, what should they be doing? How can they start this journey?

Madison (00:47:57):

I mean, I think, you know, the best thing to do is to, is to start like me start recording things, right? So you, I mean, every phone has voice memos on it. Every text message that gets sent, you know, take a screenshot of it. If something is crazy that gets sent, you know, be able to keep that you can put it in a Google drive that no one else can, you know, reach as well as, you know, those recordings or give them if you don't have anyone else to give them to you put them in a Google drive you know, put a password behind it and make sure nobody else can access it, but start collecting evidence. I think that is the most important thing, because even if you don't have a support network now, you're, you know, once you're able to get that support network, whether that's police or, you know, a lawyer or something like that, they're going to want to see the history of what happened.

Madison (00:48:47):

And I also think that getting, you know, evidence and collecting it is good in terms of, if you are able to see a therapist or go to a support group, you know, like we offer, or, you know, you can find wherever because that therapist will be able to help you walk through actually even being ever listened to this recording. Like it took me awhile to even be able to listen to the recordings that I did to just realize that it wasn't my fault, but that was all part of the healing journey. And so if you start with something as simple as just collecting recording, you know, or collecting text messages that make you really upset, you know, you can take those hold onto those until you're able to find a support network to really start digging in deeper about how it isn't your right.

Madison (00:49:32):

And a support network is so important. And there's so many online communities, you know, my door is always open. Of course, I'm sure your door is open as well. But you know, there are people out there that want to help and we are here to help. And, you know, the way that we built Lita was, you know, the story behind Lena is Lena was a sexual assault survivor who was sexually assaulted by zoos. And so, you know, the reason why we named the company Lita is because sometimes you can't tell anyone, but you can tell Leda, right? And, and Lita doesn't stand for, you know, this, this company, it stands for me. It stands for you. You are a leader. I am Lita. You know, everyone is who is a support person is Lita

Tyson (00:50:16):

Awesome. I like that. That's a interesting way that way to think about it and frame that I'm speaking to that I noticed you guys kind of have, you know, pull things back a little and shut down little bit, what are you guys doing? What triggered this and what are you guys doing to kind of revamp things?

Madison (00:50:33):

Yeah. So we've been kind of in stealth mode a little bit. We're slowly going back into the market. We haven't officially launched yet, but during this time we're really focusing on product development. So we've rebranded it to be gender neutral, which we think is super important. Our old colors were kind of pink and you know, this sexual assault is not a gender problem. You know, this is something that across all gender identities and that's why we wanted to look at colors like green and, you know, and beige and cream and teal, like these very common colors. So we spent a lot of time on branding, a lot of time on messaging and a lot of time building out our team, you know, talking to thousands of different survivors, we felt our team from a two person team of me and Liza to over 60 folks.

Madison (00:51:21):

Right. which is incredible and amazing. And you know, of those 60 folks, we represent a lot of different universities. You know, all of our team is under the age of 25. We're young. We know what's going on. We started take talking, you know, like but what we're really spending during this time is understanding how big of a problem this is and understanding how we can build, you know, a solution at every step of the problem. So, you know, with, with being isolated and alone and not having a support network, like you said, we're building support groups, you know, with folks that might have gotten pregnant, you know, we're looking at how we can give emergency contraceptive. For those who've been exposed to STDs, we're looking at how to do STD testing. You know, we really want to be the person that you trust for everything after the most traumatic time of your life. And so we've set back, you know, we haven't said a lot, but we're working on how do we become a much bigger brand and much bigger company.

Tyson (00:52:24):

So it seems like you guys are kind of that kind of holistic, vertical integrated approach of kinda anything to do with this type of space. You guys are really trying to hammer all those details down and really be that one stop shop for people, you know, kind of dealing with these situations.

Madison (00:52:39):

Yeah, exactly. So so, you know, we, we just want to really talk to survivors. We want to make sure that what we're doing rings true with them and that they do want this solution. And it is something that will make them feel empowered. And, you know, from our initial understanding, we think that this is still the right way. And I've said it early on, if we figured out that this is not the right solution to fixing sexual assault, we would pivot, but we've talked to in multitude of different people, you know, during COVID, before COVID that chose not to go to the hospital and have no other choice and want a different choice. And even now definitely do not trust the police. And we want to provide those folks with a different option and we, that we'll be able to provide it very shortly.

Tyson (00:53:28):

Yeah. And I think like we talked about earlier, I think COVID is really kind of open the doors are for you guys and what you guys are doing. What is the, the, the mentality, the self-talk like with all this, this, these legal problems that, you know, fighting the system, what is it like in your guys' organization to really stay positive, stay on mission and really keep that upbeat and know, you know, what you guys are fighting for. How are you guys dealing with that? What are you guys doing? What's that self-talk like, and all those types of things.

Madison (00:53:54):

Yeah. I've been doing a lot of meditation and I try to do yoga, but I'm not that good at it and I'm not. But you know, there's two things in the world that actually make me super happy. One is going thrift shopping and repurposing clothes. So I love so like no clothes in my wardrobe are like fast fashion or anything like that. I go to Goodwills and, and out here in Palm Springs, I go to angel view and I repurpose clothes. I cut them up. I sold them. I do crazy things with them and being able to kind of like create sustainable fashion is something that makes me really happy. And it keeps me, you know, calm and collected. I recommend anyone, you know, to try to repurpose clothes at one point it's really cool, really fun. And then I do, I do just enjoy watching movies, like, you know, being able to escape to a different world, even if it's an hour or two has been super helpful in, you know, coven.

Madison (00:54:56):

Right. And just my healing journey in general. I remember right after my assault is when Westworld first came out, like season one of Westworld, and I would just watch Westworld over and over again because I wanted to put myself in a different world. Right. Like literally Westworld. Right. and there is something that is really, you know, amazing about going to a different world for a couple hours and then being able to say, okay, I've visited there and now I'm back here. Right. And, and I immediately, after this call, I'm going to go watch more Netflix. Like, you know, that is my way of being calm.

Tyson (00:55:37):

Does that, you know, maybe dip into the realm of like some type of avoidance or, you know, I'm avoiding my problems by sleep. Nobody can get to me, you know, does that creep in or is there something to be wary of?

Madison (00:55:50):

I think there is some avoidance, right. I mean, but I don't think that a little bit of avoidance is a bad thing. I mean, sometimes you're just not in a place to, you have to take that business call. You have to do that interview. And it is sometimes, I mean, maybe psychologists might differ, you know, an opinion, but I think it is okay to put something on standby. I don't think it's okay to be Mark forever, but to say, hold on, you know, hold on, wait, this is my trauma. I'm going to put it under the bed, you know, Friday, and then Friday night, I'm going to read this knit. Right. And I think that there's something about a little bit of an avoidance. It can be a good coping mechanism, right. Not everyone is ready to speak about their assault or their trauma, or what's going on in their work week or, you know, an employee, you know, at battle that's happening or politics or whatever. And so sometimes just putting that on hold is, is okay. And you don't have to feel ashamed for putting it in our home.

Tyson (00:56:51):

Yeah. And I, I see that I definitely I'm captain procrastination. I like to take my time to think about things. I just kind of worry and I've seen it happen with friends and other people. And some of that, you you keep Friday keeps coming and you, Oh, well next Friday and the next Friday next Friday. And I worry that, you know, you just don't deal with your stuff. And if I avoid it long enough, if I hide from the repo man long enough, they're not going to take my car you know, that type of type of thing. And maybe, you know, is there a technique or some type of a strategy or something that maybe you use to make sure that Friday, this doesn't keep coming and going?

Madison (00:57:31):

Yeah. I mean, so I, I recently started doing this technique, which has been super helpful. So I like writing physical notes down. I always have a notepad next to me. And during my week I do two columns. I do good and bad. And in my good column, in my bad column, I will just put tallies on when a generally good thing will happen. And when a generally bad thing will happen. And when I start realizing that the challenge for bad things happening are much more than the tallies for good things. I know that it's time for me to take a stop and take a look at my life and what is happening and really start evaluating and looking at those bad things. And why are they happening? And is it because I'm ignoring my mom or because I'm ignoring something bigger. Right. and that has been super helpful.

Madison (00:58:22):

I mean, it takes a couple seconds. And if you know that, Oh, in a week, you know, I have 20 tallies for good and for bad, maybe it's not this week to look at, you know, kind of the under arching like instructors, right. That might be a problem. But if in your week, your 50 bad things that are happening is that because of something bigger that you're ignoring. And I think being able to visualize it and see the difference between good and bad thing is super important. You know, it helps you visualize kind of where your life is at any given time in any given week and allows them to focus your priorities. Right.

Tyson (00:59:01):

Do you ever find yourself maybe like a, I guess, catastrophizing a bit and everything's bad and there's nothing that's good happening. And you know, God, you know, look, I got a hundred tallies and see, my life just sucks and it's nothing but bad stuff that, something like that keeping in this type of system or in your experience with things like this.

Madison (00:59:17):

Yeah. I mean every one week of every month things too, you know, and flow, but yeah. I mean hormonal or not hormonal, there are times where I, my boyfriend likes to call it a, so yeah. It's like everything you're doomed, you're doomed, everything's gonna fail. It's so bad. And during that time is when I came up with the idea for good and bad, because when you do realize that, you know, you have to actually write down every instance, like in, in my good and bad, highly, literally being on this podcast would be a tally for good, right? Yeah, yeah. Of course. Right. So like, Oh, I have to send an email. Right. Or I got an email from a client who said, they're not interested. Right. Bad. But then, you know, being able to do that with every single instance kind of made me realize you can get out of that tube.

Madison (01:00:12):

Right. and maybe it just takes you putting more energy into getting some good things to happen, right. So maybe that is, you know, going and meditating, that's something good, you know, going and doing yoga. That's something good going in exercise and going and doing this go, I'm cooking a meal. You know, those are all good things that you can add to your tally. And so when you're in a doom loop that that do loop is having those 50 negative, bad things that you can't get rid of and nothing on the good side, but being able to change the perception and say, I can put more motivation into building more good things into my life, and you can always build more good things into your life. It's really easy to, you know you know, get off, get off the podcasts, go exercise, go take a run. Like that is a good thing that you can add your talent.

Tyson (01:01:03):

Yeah, I know. And I know if we really stopped to think about all the good things that really happened. I mean, you woke up this morning, check the power, turned on your water, turned on your toilet, flush a lot of countries in this world don't have any of those luxuries. And it's really just kind of I think, I think if you're struggling with some of these looking for good things start with these simple, basic things, you know, the sun Rose this morning check, you know the lights turn on the refrigerator, still working, all of these things really kind of, I think in build into that. Have you ever looked at some of these things that you categorize and you've labeled as negative and say, you know what, maybe that customer that didn't want this, you know, this is a good thing. I can reshift my message. I can maybe look at this in a different way and taking what you initially categorize as negative and saying, where's the positiveness. Do you, do you do that? Do you have techniques for that?

Madison (01:01:52):

I definitely do that. I mean, there, I think there has been the biggest rejections in my life have been now years later, some of the best rejections of my life. So, you know, I talk about my mom finding out about my sexual assault through my significant other that for two years was a bad Mark, right? It was, it was, this is horrible. This is bad. And now to me, it is a good, right. It is something that is very good. And so, you know, I've been rejected by investors where in that moment, you know, I'm like, this is horrible, this is bad. He didn't like me being rejected, whether it's relationship or investors or clients or anything like that, or for a job, it feels awful. But then realizing once you get another investor or another client or another job, or another relationship that the fact that you got rejected led you to that opportunity.

Madison (01:02:47):

Right. I do, I do think everything happens for a reason. Maybe I like to think about that because it, it makes the bad not seem as bad. Right. and, and that's, that's been super helpful, you know, is realizing that every, every single moment that happens in my life builds upon creating something greater. So even the worst rejections where I, I literally got into a shower and I cried like ugly cry, hyperventilating cry ended up being the times of my life that I look back on as the turning point for actually doing something amazing.

Tyson (01:03:26):

I like that. Is there habits or routines that you, you, you jump into or you've been gravitating to, to help you with your daily life, with trauma, with helping people with their trauma, are there things that people can kind of implement or start up?

Madison (01:03:41):

Yeah. I mean, I think, I think one thing that I've started implementing recently during coven is having a time where I stop working. Right. I think that is a super easy thing to implement for a day. Like when you just turn off your phone and you don't take any text messages and you are not going to work, I think COVID has the reason why a lot of us are feeling a lot of depression right now is because there is no ending, right. It's only beginning and only ending, right. So, you know, at 5:00 PM of my day, every single day I stopped. Right. I just stopped working. I don't answer text messages. You know, I give myself a break, you know, I am sometimes tempted most of the time right now. I think very tempting. And on weekends, I give myself completely off.

Madison (01:04:33):

I, if I am talking to somebody on a weekend, there's a crisis, right. There's something that needs my immediate attention and being able to call it Chris and having boundaries is so important. And it took me so long to create any boundaries. I used to think my cofounder was absolutely crazy for not talking to me on the weekends. I would, why are you not talking to me? There's so much work we could do. And then realizing that he's brilliant. He's absolutely brilliant and taking weekends and that I should too. And so, you know, the American culture of work until you die is not sustainable for our mental health.

Tyson (01:05:15):

Not no. Yeah. And that's something that I really, I agree with you that has really come to light during COVID it's so easy, especially now a lot of people were working from home to like, I know what I'll answer. One more email. Let me, let me check my phone one more time. And I think a lot of people are realizing that that's just not, it's a bad recipe. It's, it's really a recipe for disaster. And it's like, there's some staggering statistics out there. So the average email gets answered in four seconds. That is mind blowing. I don't know who's in their inbox that much, but that's the average. So what's happening is these people are getting pings and things and things flashing on your computers, on your phones all day long personally I think it's six or seven. My phone trucks shuts off automatically shut stuff off.

Tyson (01:06:01):

You can't text me. I don't get no messages. I don't, I don't have any notifications on my phone at all, except for text messages and phone calls, but I don't even next morning, my phone comes back on it after 7:00 AM. All these things are popping up on my phone. Again. I I all night long, I miss and I didn't see him. I tell you guys right now, nobody died. I'm not a doctor, so I don't have to worry about none of that stuff. And, you know, yeah. Just really separating yourself, giving yourself a stop time and shutting down the email and shutting down the computer and really spend some time with your family or, or with yourself, or like you're saying, get outside. I mean, getting outside is a, is a big thing that we're just not doing anymore. And getting out there and getting fresh air and getting sunshine, those are absolutely critical to your health and your mental health and a lot of things like that. That's definitely something I think really people need to kind of reevaluate and get on that.

Madison (01:06:53):

I think a lot of people are like, I'm seeing friends of mine finally go and take walks, you know, like do this and do that. And it's great. But you know, it is sad that we had to have COVID the teachers all like important lessons about our own mental health, right? Yeah.

Tyson (01:07:08):

Well, there's a lot of things that come from, you know, not just that mental health asleep, I've noticed that the, the environment we really have kind of seen like, well, we really were jacking things up and just in a few weeks, how things have come back so quickly. And there's a lot of good that really has come from this. I think,

Madison (01:07:23):

How is it, how your sleeping then? I mean, I find myself going to bed earlier and waking up earlier and super productive.

Tyson (01:07:31):

Yeah. That's the thing we, especially in America, we kind of take for granted. We think that, you know, this four to six hour sleep, a badge of honor, and I'm just killing it. I've never been in that camp. Well, I shouldn't say never when I was younger I a little bit, but I had a hard time with it cause I really just function well on about eight hours of sleep. And as I've gotten older and I've learned more about sleep, I protect my sleep. Like there's nobody's business. I don't care what I'm doing, where I'm at. I'm really I'm outta here. I gotta go. And there's, you know, I've done an episode on sleep. If you guys are interested to check it out also dr. Peter Tia he has his podcasts at drive. He does a three parter with Matt Walker.

Tyson (01:08:10):

He's like the leading sleep expert in the world. Great information. There's a lot to it. We actually do better work when we're well rested when we're not pulling this all nighters when we're not, you know getting six hours of sleep. And you know, when you're, when you're getting these, you know, four to six hours of sleep, you're, you're technically drunk. You're just going around drunk all day and nobody would ever show up to work drunk, but it's okay if we sleep a little less than our brain is technically in that state of that buzz drunk kind of feeling you really get a lot more done. You think more clearly, you're not you're not going back and forth between tasks. You're not in this constant brain fog. You're not trying to do all these things. You really got a lot more work done.

Tyson (01:08:50):

That the one thing with COVID I really doubled down on was exercise. That was the one thing in my life that always, I was like, you know what I can do later on this afternoon, I'll do it this evening. And I really just wouldn't get it done. That's something I really doubled down and said, no, there's just not any room to be unhealthy. Especially with things like this kind of really popping up. And you know, being, being overweight and being unexercised is really not just with COVID, but a lot of diseases and things really just puts you at a disadvantage.

Madison (01:09:20):

Oh, I've seen crazy weight loss stories during COVID. So a good friend of mine, Rob I, I seen him right before COVID and I saw him recently once, you know, very socially distinct hangout. I was astounded. He looked like a completely different person. I mean, he must've lost like at least, you know, 75 pounds or just a completely different human being. And, and it has been so great, you know, like a lot of people try and keto diet too. I'm not a huge fan of like meat. I'm like a card person. I am like, I, I can never go on a diet. Like I am so carbs and cheese and pasta and rice and everything. Right.

Tyson (01:10:10):

Some people that works for it's really, it's really about your, by typing your genes. And so many things that go into that.

Madison (01:10:17):

I'm just going to ride it out as long as I can, like I'm 24 right now and I never gained weight and that won't last forever. It won't. And so I'm going to like, you know, I might as well, like with this now, like I love pasta. I can be positive three times a day. My favorite place to move would be Italy. Like I would be happy with gelato and pasta, but you know, my boyfriend has gained weight during COVID because all I do is feed him pasta, which like, you know but yeah, I mean, I have seen such tremendous, you know, amazing things that have happened during COBIT and, and that's all about finding the silver lining, right. You know, COVID is such a big negative on so many people's, you know, on checklists. Right. But if there is a way, make it a positive, you know, and I think that we'll realize that there are a lot of positive things that come out of now, families coming together, working out, you know, getting in the right sheet, finding, you know, who you are in the world, having a break from, you know, the nine to five, the commute, you know, everything like that.

Madison (01:11:31):

I think it will be something that we look back and think, you know, this was horrible, but there's a lot of good that came out of it too.

Tyson (01:11:39):

The thing is that nothing but positive at all, I, and I understand people's lives have been torn to pieces. I get that, but a net net, I think it's been nothing but positive. I work out with my son every morning has been so much fun. I think people have really had the opportunity to take a step back and look at their life from a different lens, their health, and understand how important all this shit that we do is just tearing us up and tearing us apart. So, so many things really, I think, positive combines, we've been able to reevaluate our businesses, reevaluate what's important, reevaluate how we do things and how we do business and how we treat each other and child, we treat our planet. I think there's mission so much positivity from all of this.

Madison (01:12:26):

Yeah. Yeah. I used to, I I'm seeing positive vibes in the world. I'm I feel positive vibes with people too. And plus I've been able to connect with people that I normally would have never had the chance to meet because we now have the ability to be online and actually like talking to communicate. Right. So you know, but it's, it's also, it's also been a time where I've lost touch with some folks and not a thing, you know, kind of sad. I think that there's a realization too where, you know, people don't see in contact with you, if they do kind of disappear where they really a good person in your life, right. As well,

Tyson (01:13:05):

They don't talk to you no more. I'm good. You've learned that now. Maybe not the way you wanted to learn it, but that's all right.

Madison (01:13:10):

You learn it. So there's a lot of lessons to be learned here. And, and I've been learning them some the hard way, some, you know, in a very positive way. And all those lessons, you know, will make me into the person that I am and, and you know, who I can become.

Tyson (01:13:27):

And I think sharing those are the power to, you know, we can pick up something from somebody else and we can learn from somebody else's mistakes or failures or successes or whatever it is. I think that's really where a lot of the power lies there.

Madison (01:13:39):

Oh, I think so, too.

Tyson (01:13:41):

Is there any any, any book or books or something that really is either, you know, change your life or really helped you on your journey? I know you've got to a twisty, turny journey of all kinds of things. There's something we can maybe point people to that really stand out to you.

Madison (01:13:55):

So I don't love motivational books because there's just weird, right? Like sometimes they're weird and sometimes like, you know, I see this person on the cover and he's like with their arms, you know, like you can do it, you know? Right. But the book that has changed my life has actually been the book that allows me to see the world in a different lens. And not that book is that 48 laws of power by Raul.

Tyson (01:14:23):

Love it, love it, love it, love it.

Madison (01:14:26):

So, I mean, I know that sometimes people say it's like a self help motivational book, but I think it's like, it's a book looking at history and actually being able to determine, you know, like how the world is run, right. At 48 laws of power and, you know, the art of war and, and things like that. Those have been some of the most influential books to me because the motivational, like you can do it, you know, please wake up and eat an aid. And, you know, he I'm like great. I kind of know that, right? Like, you know, what I want to learn is how does the world work and happen in the way the world is working and actually create ideas that will help me get further?

Tyson (01:15:08):

Did you read Robert Green's new book, the laws of human nature.

Madison (01:15:13):

I've listened to it on tape on it's so good. I love Robert Green.

Tyson (01:15:18):

Everything he does is great. Oops.

Madison (01:15:21):

So great. Did you know here's a fun fact? Did you know that Robert Green was a adviser at the company, American apparel? I did not know that. Yeah. So Def Cherney, who is, you know, the former CEO of American apparel who was crazy like crazy and everything that he did in a very good way. Right? I think that Charney, although, I mean, there, she, so at the very beginning of our conversation, we talked about people creating big ideas and sometimes we execution being bad. Cherney is the perfect example of that. Doug Cherney created an amazing brand and it's amazing what he did, but as a human being, I he's just not a good human being right at all.

Tyson (01:16:09):

That was the downfall of the hell company and everything. Yeah.

Madison (01:16:13):

It was downfall in the whole company. And so, you know, I think you can give appreciation to what he built and American apparel and American apparel was by the way, using models that weren't traditional models before it was cool to do that. It was not cool to have models that were not signed zero, you know, for American apparel started doing that and models that didn't look like traditional models, your team from different ethnicities, right. So you do have to give credit where credit is due to American apparel, but obviously their journey is kind of crazy, but Doug tourney, there's an amazing podcast and attorney startup podcast. If you look up there, you'll find it it's like six or eight parts pretty long. And it, it goes in where he actually, he was fascinated with the book, the laws of attraction book by Robert Green. And you know, because he really wanted to win women over. Right. That would say small that because of the book laws of attraction, he hired on Robert Green as an advisor to the company too. Isn't that interesting. So, yeah. I, I think that's a super fascinating, weird thing, but yeah, we're basically in the same camp or, you know, Robert Green loving folks is deaf Kearney apparently.

Tyson (01:17:35):

Yeah. Well, I know of that story because of Ryan holiday, which also came out of American apparel, he was the so he also worked for Robert Green as well. So that's very interesting how this all kind of just turns back into itself. That's interesting

Madison (01:17:51):

Ryan holiday. I love him. I love Ryan holiday. Have you read the media manipulator book that he wrote? Yeah,

Tyson (01:18:05):

I've read every book he has. I've got his books on my desk sitting here. 

Madison (01:18:09):

I'm here. Okay. So amazingly, I talked to somebody the other day who said that they know Ryan holiday and really introduced me to him, but apparently, you know, cause he's going down his coats off like philosophical talk. So it was like, I don't know if he's really gonna do anything relating to marketing right now, but I love him. I love him. I think he's brilliant.

Tyson (01:18:33):

Yeah. I've taught I've, I've chatted with him a few times. I'm I'm spotting some of his office optical store groups. So I've, I've talked to him a few times. He's a really great person.

Madison (01:18:42):

Yes. Good. I want him to be a good person because I love him. I think. Yeah.

Tyson (01:18:48):

I've had, I guess I've had some interactions with him. I mean some of his inner circle with type things. So yeah, I mean some great stuff. I got some, I got posters around here from him and he's got these coins and stuff he does with the, his stoic stuff. I've got a bunch of stuff. I just love, I love everything he's doing. He's great. His books.

Madison (01:19:07):

How did, how did this happen? A Ryan holiday, Robert Green fan. That's pretty, I mean, I'm sure when you asked me for my favorite bug, that that was not the answer you were

Tyson (01:19:18):

Just wondering, you know what, you never know what pops up when you ask these people things. And I think these are things that help people go down these journeys, you know, I mean things that helped you and, and I think somebody can relate to your story and say, well, you know, these are things that helped her along the way. And we start to we get into these, these truths, you know, there's truth in these things. And that's something that I like in a lot of these writings, you know, if we lose a power of art of war, these are thousands of years old. And if you read these things, I mean, that's the thing I've been really fascinated with over the past few years is reading these really, you know, thousands and thousands of year old books and, and accounts of things. And if you didn't know the dates and places, it sounds like now, and it's really disheartening a little bit in my mind is like why we learned these lessons. These things have been said all these years, somebody's already talked about this. Why are we still going through this? And at there's so much wisdom there. And I think I think it's great to share this and really give people another perspective and really open up, you know, what's happening and what we can really learn and what we can be a part of.

Madison (01:20:27):

Yeah. I mean, I think I, I think we're onto something, right. So and, and those books have helped me so much. I mean, I often make fun of my boyfriend who, you know, he reads history all the time, right? Like on my desk, which, you know, we have tons of books like 1776 and RFK. And like basically every history book, like about every, you know, autobiography we have in our house. And because it's so important to learn from the past in order to make, you know realistically move forward in the future. And that's, you know, I think why 48, lots of power is so great is because it mixes old and new, right. Because when you're reading through autobiographies, you might be like, why am I reading this? Like, what's the purpose of this. But being able to realize that the way that people thought about the world is constantly changing and being able to take how they thought and the good thing and the bad thing.

Madison (01:21:25):

Right. And being able to move those forward in life. And, you know, I want to believe that for a lot of the world, you know, in which we lived in both past and present, you know, we want the world to be a better place. And we're, we're sometimes we want the world to be a better place in a very weird way of that, you know? And I think that if we constantly move forward and, you know, with this collective understanding that we're all put on this planet and we have to make it sustainable and this has to work, you know, and then we can really move forward and create something beautiful.

Tyson (01:21:59):

Absolutely. No, absolutely. Well said, well said, where can people find you, what's the best way to kind of get in touch with you? We got going on. Where do you want to play people?

Madison (01:22:07):

Yeah. So you can, I'm always on LinkedIn. And please follow me on LinkedIn. Please follow me on Twitter on Instagram. And then also my website, I not, as in campbell.com, which is easy to remember, but Lita is, you know, my baby and I want to help anybody who's listening here, whether it is, you know, sexual assault or a different type of trauma. I have so many resources, you know, that I can give to any person who wants to help our email is info@lita.co and, you know, feel free to email and we'll email back immediately with any resources that we have. We just want to help, whether, you know, it's finding a lawyer or finding a support group, or even just talking to somebody who has been through it and will understand we are here for you.

Tyson (01:22:58):

Perfect. I will link everything for everybody in the show notes, just head over to social media show and everything, all her links for everything she's talking about. There will all be in the show notes. And one last thing here to kind of end on, I like to do a weekly challenge, either something we talked about or something else completely up to you, I want you to be the one that issue this week's challenge for everybody.

Madison (01:23:21):

Yeah. So I think my challenge for this week is creating a list of good and bad, right? Like we talked about. Okay. So I want you to create a list and on one side, I want you to say, good and I, on the other side, I want you to say back and on Friday, you know, next Friday I want you to look at that list and I want you to see the distribution of good and bad. And I want to do what you said, which is also count the good things in your life that you might've thought not thought about. That, you know, that microwave being able to turn on and my group, my food. So it's warm in the morning or the nice hot coffee, you know, that I have, or the walk that I'm going on with my son. Right. You know, all those things are good. I am, I want you to go and build that list and tell me what's on it. Right. and if there is a lot of bad on it, realize that it's okay. And the next week you can switch that you have the power to, to switch the narrative. It does not have to be bad forever. You can bring those tallies up and you can make sure that your next week and, you know, every week following is filled with more good things and bad things.

Tyson (01:24:30):

Absolutely wonderful challenge. We always have the opportunity to change our story at any moment we want to. That's absolutely amazing. Is there anything you wanted to let the people know or chat about? We haven't had a chance to go over yet.

Madison (01:24:43):

I think my last final remark is you know, to those folks out there who have experienced trauma, realize that we believe you. And it's not your fault, right? Sometimes you need to hear it from a random person. You've never spoken to you, but we believe you and it's not your fault. And, and like I said, it does not have to define your narrative. You define your narrative, you define the good, you define the bad. And so that's, that's what I want to leave people with.

Tyson (01:25:15):

Absolutely beautiful Madison. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you for all your wisdom and thank you for everything you're doing in the battles you're fighting. I'm on the frontline of sexual assault.

Madison (01:25:23):

Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

Tyson (01:25:26):

Thank you Madison, again for that. And like I said, in the beginning of this, and we said throughout the thing, please, if you are a victim or know somebody of a victim of sexual assault, please understand it's not your fault. And please reach out to these resources for help. And if you know somebody that this could help, please absolutely share it with them. The best way to support the show is to share the show, share with your friends and families. If you, if you like what we've got going on here we would love to hear from you leave, like leave a review. Absolutely amazing. And if you want to connect with us all week long, you can check us out on social community, show Facebook, Instagram, Twitter. Also, don't forget to subscribe on YouTube. If you didn't join the video version or in your favorite podcast app, if you're new here, make sure you hit that subscribe button. So you're not missing out on ended episodes for past episodes and links to everything we talked about here today, please visit the social chameleon.show. And until next time, keep learning, keep growing and keep transforming into the person you want to become.

Speaker 4 (01:27:01):


Connect On Social

This podcast is available on…

Scroll to Top