Real Estate Resilience and Long-Term Wealth:

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Tyson Gaylord [00:00:04]:
Welcome to the Social Chameleon Show, where it's our go to help you learn, grow, and transform into the person you wanna become. On this episode of the Social Community Show, we welcome Michael Kramer, a highly successful real estate investor and business leader. Inspired by a deeply personal tragedy, Michael vowed to break his family's cycle of financial insecurity. He launched his career by becoming the top ranking franchisee, eventually expanding into real estate, where he now manages a $40,000,000 portfolio and leads 10 real estate focused businesses. Michael's journey is also one of resilience. After a life changing accident in 2016, he shifted his strategy cumulating a portfolio of over 400 residential units and 1,000 units. Mike, today, as CEO and founder of Free by Real Estate, he guides others towards financial freedom. Mike is also an Amazon bestseller, co authoring empathetic leadership with renowned FBI negotiator Chris Voss.

Tyson Gaylord [00:00:57]:
His insights on tactical empathy reflect a powerful blend of compassion and strategy in both life and leadership. Please join us as we explore Michael's inspiring story and his unique approach to wealth building, creating impact, and leading with empathy. He's very vulnerable. I hope everybody out there, if you're struggling with anything, if you're going through things, I really hope that you can take away something from this from what how Michael was talking about this, or if you know somebody that's going through this, maybe this is something you should share with them. Without further ado, let's talk to Michael. Michael, welcome to the Social Community Show.

Michael Kramer [00:01:33]:
Thank you, Tyson. It's great to be here.

Tyson Gaylord [00:01:36]:
I'd like to start off maybe, and then maybe, hopefully, a different place than maybe most people would. I was as I was reading things your team and stuff sent over and and things about you, I noticed you had, a a tragic incident where you lost vision in your eye. I'm not sure how that kinda turned out. As much of the stories you wanna share, maybe a TLDR, how much would you wanna share? I'd like to learn about what happened and then how that's kinda finished off, how how that progressed.

Michael Kramer [00:02:00]:
Yeah. For sure. So, July 4th 2016. If you're thinking 4th July accident, that's what everyone else thought, but that's not what it was. Okay. I, pardon me. Actually, my wife and I woke up that morning, and, we had been working on a flip house together. And we said, well, we have plans this afternoon, but let's go get a few things progressed on the flip house.

Michael Kramer [00:02:27]:
So that was our plan. We were gonna spend a couple hours and then head off and enjoy the rest of the day and fireworks and all the festivities. So we walk into this house. It's in the it's in the center of Omaha, and it's an old house. It was built in the twenties. And we had just sanded the floors, oak wood floors. And you know in an older house, how the floors are imperfect, so there's lots of cracks and, imperfections. And because it had just been sanded, we're trying to protect this so that we don't stain it with anything.

Michael Kramer [00:02:56]:
Right? So when we go back with the finish, it looks beautiful. Right. Well, right about the time we walk in, my wife doesn't see a can of paint sitting on the floor, and she kicks it over. And the lid wasn't on it, so white paint spills all over the floor. Mhmm. And so you can imagine the paint soaking in, and we're we're hustling to try to clean it all up. Mhmm. It took us about an hour because we were just wanting to make sure nothing was ruined.

Michael Kramer [00:03:21]:
Right. And, frustrated, she's like, let's go. I I just wanna be done. Like, this isn't this isn't our day. And I said, well, I haven't accomplished anything. Let me let me put up one piece of trim so I don't feel like a complete waste of my day. I didn't wanna show up here and clean up paint. So let me put up one piece of trim.

Michael Kramer [00:03:38]:
So I go in the bathroom, and behind the toilet, there's a there's a piece of trim between the vanity and the wall. And then from the wall to the doorway where it returned, I had that one piece I wanted to install. Oh, the wall had a little bit of a bow in it. Mhmm. And it was a plaster and lath wall, which meant the the thickness of that wall was varying, but it was really thick. And face nailing it, I wasn't getting the nails to bite. So I I bent the board with my hand and with the other, I used the air nailer and shot a nail to toenail the one piece of trim into the other and hold it in place while I glued it. While the glue dried, it would stay.

Michael Kramer [00:04:14]:
I hit hit the nail gun. I see a spark. The nail comes back. Goes into the center into the center of my pupil, not glancing below, not like, oh, this poked me, and it fell out. I sat back on my knees or I was on my knees. I sat back on my feet, and I felt, you know, my face was wet. So I I wiped my face, and I looked at my hand thinking it was blood, and it wasn't. It was clear.

Michael Kramer [00:04:41]:
So without getting too graphic, you probably can imagine, you know, what was coming out of my eye. Mhmm. And so I just sort of in shock, I I pulled the nail out. And I learned later at the doctor I shouldn't have done that, but I did because I didn't, you know, it's a natural instinct.

Tyson Gaylord [00:04:57]:
Mhmm.

Michael Kramer [00:04:58]:
And, my wife quick quickly rushes me to the hospital, and, yeah, they thought I had a fireworks accident. But it turned out it was right a nail gun accident. Mhmm. And it did cost me my vision. I've had multiple surgeries since.

Tyson Gaylord [00:05:11]:
Wow.

Michael Kramer [00:05:12]:
And a cornea transplant, so I'm really grateful for organ donors. And today, you can't really see. If you look at me, it's you don't notice that there's a problem. Mhmm. But I certainly do, because I can't see anything on this side, and I've lost my depth perception. So Interesting. That changed our business significantly because while we were doing some fix and flip stuff and I was using my hands, when you lose your depth perception, you lose your confidence because I I'm working with, you know, saws and nail guns and getting on ladders and doing different things. And, I just I just didn't feel safe to do that anymore because I can't really see where I'm at in space.

Michael Kramer [00:05:52]:
And so it was at that moment where we said, let's or my wife really suggested during the recovery. She said, let's stop focusing on you doing the work, and let's start buying some assets, holding them, allowing the crews to finish to finish the jobs, but then let's hold these assets for some passive income. In the event you get injured again or, you know, maybe something worse happens, at least the family will have some income. So that's what we did starting in 2016.

Tyson Gaylord [00:06:19]:
Well, it's just thank you for sharing that. That's a interesting story. I mean, it goes to show people, listen. Put your goggles on, PPE. I mean, we got protection. Especially, I think a lot of those older guys is like, listen, I don't wanna put these on. Like, you see

Michael Kramer [00:06:31]:
that you

Tyson Gaylord [00:06:31]:
can't see very well.

Michael Kramer [00:06:33]:
You can't.

Tyson Gaylord [00:06:34]:
Humid. And there's a lot of alternatives now. I know, I've seen some, like, there've been some big developments in, like, shop shades and stuff like that. I think it's actually a brand where it does it is a little bit better to see. But man, boy, the importance of that. I gotta piece of metal on my end. Nothing like that happened. That is incredible.

Tyson Gaylord [00:06:51]:
What was the hardest part of that? Was it, like, the coming to the terms with, you know, maybe permanently losing your vision, or what was it that was the hardest part of that experience for you?

Michael Kramer [00:07:00]:
You know, there there was some pity for myself, you know, right after the accident where, you know, feeling sorry for myself and thinking, man, I'm never gonna be the same and vanity issues. Because for right after that, everyone is asking me about what happened, and it was just exhausting because it didn't look normal. And I'm like, am I gonna end up with a glass eye? So it just those kinds of vanity, which I'm a little embarrassed to even admit because I was, you know, looking back, that that happened one of my favorite sayings, things happen for us, not to us.

Tyson Gaylord [00:07:34]:
Right.

Michael Kramer [00:07:34]:
And this happened for me because had I not had that happen, I don't know that I that I would have ever bought and and held real estate, Tyson. I think I would have continued to work with my hands, mostly because I enjoyed it, and I I was good at it. Mhmm. And so, I think the hardest thing for me was just coming to terms with I had to do something different than what I was really passionate about, but it turned out to be way better. We we now have, you know, a portfolio of over 400 units, and our our family's life will never be the same financially because of that accident. And so while it was difficult at the time, and I was feeling sorry for myself, you know, we worked our way through it, and by God's grace, you know, nobody really can tell now. And, we're on a much better path than I was was before I ever thought I would be, frankly.

Tyson Gaylord [00:08:27]:
Yeah. It's good to share. I like that, You know, that's that's real. People need to I think, you know, we all go through things. Maybe we we feel insecure about something or whatever it is. That that's I I love that you shared that you were able to reframe that. What was the self talk like? How did you were you like this before, and this was something you were able to kinda, you know, push through.

Michael Kramer [00:08:45]:
How was that like? There were, Tyson, there were some dark days because I I had and and I I'm gonna tell you about a level of pain that is is gonna seem maybe insignificant to those listening, maybe have experienced much worse pain than this. But I had never felt pain like this. For the for the couple of days after, the surgery, there was zero pain. I don't really remember having pain the day of, and I didn't really have pain for a few days after. And then I entered into this dark phase of, not being able to I couldn't my hair hurt. If you drew a line down my face, I couldn't I couldn't touch even my face. Like, my teeth hurt. Everything hurt.

Michael Kramer [00:09:29]:
And, I remember sitting on the edge of my bed, couldn't sleep, just rocking back and forth, sweating, because the pain was so unbearable. And the the image that came to mind was, I'm a I'm a person of faith, and, when Jesus was in the Garden of Gethsemane and was bleeding or sweating blood, like, I was somehow relating to that moment, although I imagine that was much, much worse, because he was about to be crucified. But that's how I felt. It was, like, just I was ready to go. Like, take me, because this this sucks. So I'll tell you, for a few days, the self talk was, you know, I I don't wanna deal with this.

Tyson Gaylord [00:10:09]:
Yeah.

Michael Kramer [00:10:09]:
It was miserable.

Tyson Gaylord [00:10:10]:
And the

Michael Kramer [00:10:10]:
pain pills didn't touch it. And I didn't I I also this is maybe a, a pride issue. Mhmm. I also didn't wanna overdo the pain pills and and be I was a little afraid of being addicted to it, and I had seen opiates and stuff nowadays. Exactly. Exactly. That had wrecked some other people that I knew, like, closely, close friends, and I just was scared of that. So I was trying to tough my way through it, I guess.

Michael Kramer [00:10:36]:
But after that period, and I got through those surgeries, and I and the pain kinda went away, and you're readjusting your reality to, like, what you can see and can't see and what you can do and can't do. I remember just a really a quick story. We're on the front front lawn with my boy. I've got 2 boys, and we are all sports fanatics. And we're out playing wiffle ball, and they're the boys are hitting. And one of the kids hit the ball, and it came back and hit me straight in the mouth.

Tyson Gaylord [00:11:07]:
You couldn't see it?

Michael Kramer [00:11:08]:
I couldn't see it coming.

Tyson Gaylord [00:11:09]:
Wow.

Michael Kramer [00:11:10]:
And I was like it was so frustrating. And so now, they still make fun of me because I can't I can't play ping pong or anything Uh-huh. That I really used to enjoy. Mhmm. If you wanna if you want some comic relief, take me golfing.

Tyson Gaylord [00:11:25]:
You're gonna switch it.

Michael Kramer [00:11:26]:
Yeah. Exactly. But back to your question, I think in the days after and adjusting through some of the ego and and, you know, vanity things, which, again, is not I'm not real proud to admit that I was dealing with that. It was really the the moment where my wife said, hey. We're gonna be we're gonna be okay, and I've got your back to be able to say, there is something here for us. And I don't know what it is, but I'm gonna just do the next right thing and step out in faith and trust that that the skills that got me here will serve me going forward. I just have to figure out what new skills I need to adapt and learn or learn and and adopt, rather. And so it took some time, but I I will tell you that I was introduced to a gentleman, named Sean Terry that, has a course called Flip to Freedom.

Michael Kramer [00:12:17]:
And, I ended up buying that course shortly after the injury just trying to to see how does how does he do, real estate, and maybe there's a way I could borrow some of his inspiration. And, it really kinda lit a fire under me because he laid out, here's how we here's how the the contracts work. Here's how the the process work. It was a wholesaling business model

Tyson Gaylord [00:12:40]:
Okay.

Michael Kramer [00:12:40]:
Where you're basically are you familiar with how wholesaling works?

Tyson Gaylord [00:12:43]:
I am, but please enlighten the audience.

Michael Kramer [00:12:45]:
Yeah. So what's cool about wholesaling is you you buy a property or you put a property under contract. And when you have this contract, it's it's the a party is the owner of the property. I'm the b party, so I have an a, b contract. And I own this piece of paper. I I don't own the property just yet. And I find a c party, which is a buyer, and I assign or sell this contract to that c party, and they end up closing on the property. And you you make a spread on whatever you know, if you have it under contract for 50,000 and you sell it for 70,000, you make $20,000 and you never own the property.

Michael Kramer [00:13:24]:
Right. And when I learned that, I thought I thought there's no way this is real. There's no way this is legal. There's if it if it is true, everybody would be doing it. Right. But I learned and at at that time in Nebraska, which is where I'm based, it was still legal to do that. It's now illegal to do that. You can't sell that.

Michael Kramer [00:13:42]:
Yeah. You can't sell that paper. Well, that's not true. It isn't illegal to do that. It's illegal to advertise unless you have an agent. So if I have equitable interest, like an AV contract, I can list that contract for sale, but a realtor has to do it, and they need to be paid commissions and follow the the realtor rules. And so, but, yeah, that that was a business that we started in. And and when it when I learned about it and I understood it and I started I I remember the very first deal I did.

Michael Kramer [00:14:12]:
I was on vacation with my family in Arizona or in Arkansas. Excuse me. Mhmm. And I got a call from somebody that was in preforeclosure, and they were just about to lose their house. And I said, I think I can help you. I think I can prevent this foreclosure. I ran the numbers. I had a, PropStream, a software with me.

Michael Kramer [00:14:30]:
Mhmm. And I looked at the comparables, and I said, I think there's there's an opportunity here. And so I agreed while in Arkansas, which my kids hate this story because, like, we were on vacation. Why are you doing this? Yeah. But I was trying to figure out, you know, what was next. Mhmm. Ended up getting into the contract. And within a week, I sold it to somebody else, and I made $10,000.

Michael Kramer [00:14:50]:
It saved the homeowner's credit. They didn't go through the foreclosure, which was a huge that's a that's a really fun part of that story because Right. A lot of times, people hate wholesalers. But in these instances where you truly do help somebody who's in trouble, it's very rewarding. And that's sort of what lit the fire under me to do more of that, and that's how we got started in in building enough cash to then end up buying more real estate to hold.

Tyson Gaylord [00:15:14]:
Right. Yeah. That I could see how they would outlaw that because you could potentially see that person acting as a realtor but not being one. So I could see how they would, like, try to close that up a little bit. So maybe people don't get, into, you know, tough positions. Like you're saying, you know, you were helping somebody, but I could see how other people maybe would take advantage of people. So I said

Michael Kramer [00:15:36]:
It's very common, and that's, I think, why why, wholesalers do get a bad rap because it's very there's a very low barrier to entry. You need no licensing, no experience. You just need to understand how to write the contract. Mhmm. And you you have to balance this delicate balance between the a party and the c party. Mhmm. Because as the middle person, they're saying, I thought you were buying this. As the a party says, I thought you were buying this house, Mike.

Michael Kramer [00:16:02]:
And the c party says, do you own this house? Right? And so you have to just disclose what's happening. Mhmm. Be comfortable sharing that, and be comfortable living in that sort of messy middle. And if you aren't comfortable with that, then games can start to be played, and that's where it gets shady.

Tyson Gaylord [00:16:18]:
Yeah. I can I can I can definitely imagine that? I think I'd like to get back to some of your other stuff a little bit later. I'd like to circle back a little bit. It's amazing you had a it sounds like you have a great wife, great partner. And I can imagine that having a partner, having a ally, having somebody in your corner, it's your spouse, maybe it's your not, maybe it's a friend or something like that, really, was probably the from what what I'm hearing is the catalyst to your recovery and to you getting out of that dark place and getting through that. Am I hearing this correctly?

Michael Kramer [00:16:46]:
No question. Yeah. She's Lucy's my wife. She's incredible. She's my business partner to this day. She's our CFO. Nice. She handles all of the back end stuff and and really is the glue to our operation.

Tyson Gaylord [00:17:00]:
Is there any other resources, maybe, books or things that helped you through this dark time?

Michael Kramer [00:17:07]:
Yes. Yeah. So let me go back even before this because Okay. The there was a there was an earlier sort of failure, I guess, that precipitated all of this, and it was it was when my mom, came to me. I'm the I'm her youngest son. I've got 4 brothers and 5 sisters. There's 10 in our family. And my mom came to me and told me that she didn't have $600 to dig my father's grave.

Michael Kramer [00:17:36]:
Oh, man. Tyson, the night before, he had died in our living room after a 3 year battle with cancer. And so if you can imagine, I'm grieving the loss of my father, my hero, a man I looked up to and wanted to be. Mhmm. And then I see this look on my mom's face. She's also grieving, but now she's, on top of that, terrified. She has no money. How is she gonna take care of her family? How is she gonna take care of herself? And I remember thinking, I'm gonna do whatever it takes to make sure this never happens again, and I became obsessed with making money.

Tyson Gaylord [00:18:11]:
Right.

Michael Kramer [00:18:12]:
Fast forward a few I didn't know how. I'm a young man at this time. Fast forward a few years, I ended up buying a business and became very successful in this business. It was a franchise operation, and I had 5 locations. I was the the fastest growing the 1st year and the largest sales volume the 2nd 3rd year. I'm speaking at the national conventions. I made it.

Tyson Gaylord [00:18:32]:
Right.

Michael Kramer [00:18:33]:
But it cost me my wife. My marriage to to my first wife ended because of my pursuit. Single-minded, single focused pursuit on building wealth. And while I felt like I financially had made it, I had failed my family. And the irony of that really struck me after the convention and and the divorce happened. And I say my dad was a great father, a great husband, but a terrible businessman. Now here I am, a great businessman and a terrible husband and father. And so, yeah, so we we set out to to fix that.

Michael Kramer [00:19:10]:
And one of the books or I set out to fix that, one of the books that I read that helped me pivot my thinking and really shape my thinking there's actually 2 that come to mind. The first was crucial conversations. K. And that that book the basic premise of the book is a crucial conversation is defined as a conversation where the stakes are high, where opinions vary, and where emotions are strong. And interestingly, in real estate, almost every conversation is a crucial conversation by that definition. Right? Right. Buyers and sellers thinking the prices are different. There's strong emotions.

Michael Kramer [00:19:48]:
The opinions are different. There's a lot on the line. And so that book really helped me see that I wasn't a bad communicator. I I had written off this this failed marriage to, I'm good in business, but I'm not good in relationships. And I learned through that book that I was wrong. Mhmm. I just wasn't I had been thinking of people for so many years, Tyson, as how are you gonna help me get where I wanna go? Oh, selfish. Selfish.

Michael Kramer [00:20:17]:
Very selfish. Very utilitarian. If you're not gonna help me, get out of my way. I'm on a mission, and it cost me my most important relationship.

Tyson Gaylord [00:20:26]:
Mhmm.

Michael Kramer [00:20:26]:
So reading that book helped me see I can have these conversations with with people I care about. And on top of that or shortly after that, I was introduced to a book called Never Split the Difference.

Tyson Gaylord [00:20:37]:
Oh, love that

Michael Kramer [00:20:37]:
book. Yeah. Written by Chris Voss. That book gave me the tools to apply what I learned in Crucial Conversations. Crucial Conversations was more like reading a textbook. It was a little tough to read. Yeah. But Never Split the Difference was more like reading, you know, a guidebook.

Michael Kramer [00:20:57]:
Here's how to practice these tools. And I I took that hook, line, and sinker and ran with it, and it completely changed who I am as a person. The tools of of tactical empathy, which I the reason I bought the book was because I it was a book about negotiation. Right. I'm thinking I'm gonna be a better negotiator. And it turned out to be a book that changed who I am. It changed how I think. My whole paradigm shifted.

Michael Kramer [00:21:22]:
Instead of how can you serve me, I became really curious about what's motivating other people and asking instead, what can you do for me? Saying, what can we do together? And that little shift completely, completely changed who I am. I actually went on to, co author a book with Chris Voss, and, that was, you know, one of the highlights in my life to this point. Right. But from there, my relationships got better. Now 12 family members work in the business. My wife, who I was dating during this period, became my wife. Our relationship has been phenomenal, and I attribute a lot of that to these books that I just mentioned, but also more importantly, I'd say the practice of actually deploying the tactical empathy.

Tyson Gaylord [00:22:08]:
Thank you. So you've been so vulnerable so far. Thank you so much. I think there's a lot here. I mean, you took this tragedy like you saw it earlier, and you you took it as an opportunity to completely change your life. And that's commendable. I I really hope you guys out there listening. You guys can be inspired by this.

Tyson Gaylord [00:22:25]:
You could have easily said, my shit body's over. I I shit the bucket. And

Michael Kramer [00:22:31]:
Yeah. That's right.

Tyson Gaylord [00:22:31]:
People probably wouldn't have blamed you if you would be him an alcoholic, maybe you did drugs. Like, hey, man. You know what happened to him? I mean, you know, I don't blame him. Right? And it's so easy to do that, but for whatever reason, you didn't do that. And now you're an inspiration in such a you could take this tragedy. You you you spent that time in the darkness and you got out of it and you flipped it. And now you can let everybody know that you guys can do this too, and I think there's a there's a lot of power there. Thank you very much for sharing this.

Michael Kramer [00:22:54]:
Well, I think, Tyson, that this this human spirit within all of us Mhmm. Is is, it's really indomitable. If we are willing to, I'm gonna say, remain curious Mhmm. About what's happening to us. Mhmm. Because if we remain curious about it, there is something in there for us. Mhmm. It is it is intended to be I like to say, we win or we learn.

Michael Kramer [00:23:20]:
And a lot of times, the lessons are way more valuable than the wins, because if we are remaining curious, and instead of saying, this sucks, I'm a victim, which full disclosure, After the divorce, I lived in an RV and rode my bicycle every day for probably 6 months. Like, I I wanted nothing to do with anybody because I felt like such a failure. Mhmm. And I needed to reconcile this journey that I had been on for 15 years to create wealth Yeah. That culminates in a big, you know, big business and a big success on stage moment, all of this stuff Mhmm. Only to cost me my family. And that's really what I was doing it for. And so there was a period of, like, I ate Reese's Pieces, I drank tequila, and I rode my bike.

Tyson Gaylord [00:24:05]:
Yeah.

Michael Kramer [00:24:06]:
So so please don't don't, I don't want to sugarcoat that that I'm some, you know, superhero thinker, that I have all these these attributes that others can aspire to. I'm just a a really, inquisitive like, I wanna be honest first with myself and, ask myself the hard questions. What can I learn from it? How how can I be a better person for this? And it's it's your brain's a computer. It it answers the questions you ask of it. It it does not think for itself. It's guided by our our our unction, our desires, whatever that spirit is telling us. And so if we listen to it and we're patient and can sit with it for a while, I think more often than not, good can come out of it. Even even if there's moments of darkness in there, even if there's moments of fuzziness because of the, the tequila and and Reese's Pieces.

Michael Kramer [00:25:01]:
But, overall, I I'm grateful for the journey, and and I'm glad I came out on the other side.

Tyson Gaylord [00:25:07]:
Yeah. And and that is a lesson. I'm not trying to hopefully, I'm I didn't try to make you out superhero, but the lesson I think is like you're saying, it is possible. Once you go through that, once you're there and you make that decision, like, fuck, I gotta stop drinking. I gotta stop. And maybe you don't know how to get going, but just I think the thought of saying I gotta stop and I gotta go a different way. And that's the beginning, I think, of a new chapter right there.

Michael Kramer [00:25:33]:
It is. It is. Absolutely. And I do think it it all comes back to what I mentioned earlier, which is this indomitable spirit that that we're all given. Like, we're here for a reason. And if the reason is to fizzle out or to fade away, then that's that's, I think, a failure for us to recognize our purpose. And I just maybe I'm too idealistic or too, like, altruistic in my views, but that's what drives me, is to say, I'm here to serve others. I'm here for a purpose.

Michael Kramer [00:26:01]:
And that's even to to this day, what we do in business, it's all about serving other families, helping them create generational wealth through real estate, and helping them keep their families together at the same time. Because on one hand, you can say, I want to drive and create wealth. And trust me, I can help you do that. I've done it, and I will continue to. But more important than that, if you don't have the people that you love to share it with, and at the and if at the end, when you're gone, they fight over it because they want it more than they want each other, then I have failed in my mission. And so it's it's really important to me to not only, you know, be good at building something and and making money. That's, I think, the relatively easy part, frankly. The more difficult and and the higher calling, if you will, is to make sure that my family along the way is together and has harmony.

Michael Kramer [00:26:54]:
It It isn't always perfect. There's a lot of ups and downs, but we're we're we're very intentional about making sure there's harmony among the family. And, most importantly, thinking about the generations after I'm gone, the ones I don't even know yet, to make sure that that that they're that that harmony, excuse me, will continue on. Because if I don't do that, if I'm not intentional about that and trying to plant those seeds and those I do have direct contact with, then it the odds of it succeeding into the future diminish greatly. And then my legacy, which is ultimately what matters most to me at this point in my life Mhmm. Is is one of a of a failed dad or a failed businessman, and I just don't want that pain for my family Right. Or any families.

Tyson Gaylord [00:27:37]:
Right. Are these lessons you took from, your father's tragedy?

Michael Kramer [00:27:43]:
Largely. And my own failure in in my marriage. Those 2 are kind of the 2 big, I'm gonna say pivotal moments in my life, the 2 biggest, like, earth shaking, is life over moments, you know, where you you do contemplate, is this worth living? Mhmm. And, you know, I I I, by god's grace, would be would say I'm grateful to say I've never really contemplated suicide. I had some friends who have committed suicide, and, I've wondered how they've thought about it and what led them there. But I've never felt to to that point where I'd say it's not worth it. But those are the two moments where I've gotten the closest, I'd say, to say, what is this all about? And is this is this worth the effort? Because I thought it was, and it wasn't. It failed.

Michael Kramer [00:28:33]:
And so those are those are really heavy and hard, lessons to learn. But this is a big but. If they're used to fuel you towards something that is inspiring, something that is gonna be lasting, then it's worth it. And I wouldn't try looking back, I wouldn't trade those things. As hard as they were, I wouldn't trade those. Then the eye injury and and a few other little things along the way, yeah, they've been they've been instrumental too. But the 2 sort of, earth shattering, you know, rocking my world were dad dying and the divorce.

Tyson Gaylord [00:29:11]:
Right. And that leads me to something I I was reading, through your things. We you're talking about a 100 year plan. Could you talk us through what a 100 years? That sounds absolutely absurd.

Michael Kramer [00:29:22]:
Yeah. Well, what's interesting is, and sad, frankly, is that so many of us don't think past really at the next paycheck. Right. And our thinking about planning for family in the future is is abstract because we're feeling so much pain in ourselves today.

Tyson Gaylord [00:29:40]:
Right.

Michael Kramer [00:29:40]:
And so how do you rise above that? You know, how do you rise above, I I need to pay my own rent and buy my own groceries, and I've got my own kids I'm trying to raise and, you know, keep out of the prison and off the pole, depend upon what sex they are. Right. And so it can feel a little bit, like, elusive for people to think that way. And I do think it comes down to, you know, intention and and how do you wanna be remembered? And some of it has to do with when I get older. You know, I think I think more that way and these tragedies along the way. But the reason we said a 100 years is because there's an adage, maybe you've heard it, shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves in 3 generations, Where and and I actually like the way Joe Rogan says it, which I'm gonna butcher if I try to say it. But, basically, it's there's, strong men create easy times. Easy times create soft men.

Michael Kramer [00:30:33]:
Soft men create hard times. That's a 3 generation cycle where a simpler way of saying it is, the 1st generation buys something, the 2nd generation builds it, the 3rd generation sells it. And so by the 4th generation, they start over, shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves in 3 generations. And so if a generation is 25 years, that's 75 years. What I what I bought will be gone because my grandkids will sell it. So in order for me to think or in order for the 4th generation to get it, I gotta think about them, and I have to plan for them. And so I'm saving and building and growing something that is for the grandkids or the great grandkids that I don't even know and may never meet. But if if I have some planning and some thought into it, and I'm planting those seeds in my kids and asking them to plant those seeds into their kids, there's a chance it can endure.

Michael Kramer [00:31:26]:
And and what I will tell you is without planning, without thinking about that 4th generation a 100 years from now Mhmm. They will be left starting over because that is a repeatable pattern. And it's true for all cultures, all parts of the world.

Tyson Gaylord [00:31:42]:
Right.

Michael Kramer [00:31:43]:
It's a human thing. And so to break that cycle of poverty, we have to we have to be thoughtful and intentional about it. So that's why we do that.

Tyson Gaylord [00:31:51]:
Is this just mentoring teaching philosophy, or are you also using, like, trust and things and legal things to kinda prevent things from happening?

Michael Kramer [00:31:59]:
Yeah. Great question. It's so it starts with philosophy, but it then it turns into actual instruments, which in our case, we're using trust to do so. We're we're building what's called the dynasty trust right now. But what's interesting, Tyson, is the beginning of that, for us, is what we call a family constitution. It's a borrowed term. I you know, I didn't create that by any means. But if you think about the US constitution and how that has guided us for 100 of years, and we come back to it, and we talk about it often as a people.

Michael Kramer [00:32:29]:
Right? And whether you agree or disagree or how it should be changed, that's all that that's all up for debate, and that's okay. But we all come back to that document. And that's what I wanted to give to my family for generations to come is to say, who are the Kramers? What do we stand for? What are we about? What are we gonna tolerate, not tolerate? And have it be a framing that then they can refer to in the future to say, if you're part of this this trust and you're part of this this dynasty, then this is this is how you're gonna have to uphold yourself or or conduct yourself in order to participate. And to be and to be, a tool or a framing to say you don't comply, then we have no obligation to help you. In other words, if you do end up, you know, being the guy that's a bonehead and is hurting people and ends up, you know, going down the wrong path, that's gonna be a choice that will will we won't have to honor your your financial security or your access to the trust, if you will. So it it acts as a governing tool. The trust itself, without that sort of governing tool, the constitution, I think, falls short, and so that's why we started with that constitution.

Tyson Gaylord [00:33:42]:
Is there, a framework either you can point us to or that you use to set this foundation? It's like so listeners out there, like, hey. This sounds interesting. Where can we use where can we start? Like, how do we start thinking about this?

Michael Kramer [00:33:55]:
Yeah. So there's, a couple of books that I've read. One that comes to mind that, actually, I'm just finishing is called 7 Generations' Legacy. And, that that comes to mind is one that I've just finished, and it gives a pretty good frame let oops. Sorry. Let me give you another one here that it Sure. Was kind of the precursor to that. I gotta get to my audible.

Michael Kramer [00:34:22]:
Bear with me. Because part of it is, everything is created usually three times. But first, it's always created in our mind. Mhmm. And then secondly, it's a draft on paper of some kind. And thirdly, if it's a physical structure, it'll get built. Mhmm. Yeah.

Michael Kramer [00:34:41]:
So the second one, the first one is 7 Generations Legacy by Rachel Marshall. K. And she's got a whole bunch of, workflows and processes that you can leave she can lead you through. And the other one is the intentional legacy, David McElvaney. Okay. Those would be 2 that I'd recommend for people that are interested in that kind of thing. And and the other piece too, if we're we're talking about trusts Mhmm. Not all trusts are created equal.

Tyson Gaylord [00:35:11]:
Right.

Michael Kramer [00:35:11]:
And not all trust attorneys can truly understand what you're trying to accomplish. Many, many, many times and I'll use a simple example. If you go to the doctor and say, hey. I have this pain. You know, maybe my finger hurts. Mhmm. They'll probably refer you to an ortho if it's truly a structural issue.

Tyson Gaylord [00:35:30]:
Mhmm. And when

Michael Kramer [00:35:30]:
you go to the ortho, they're probably gonna say, yeah. I can fix that, and you need surgery on it. Because that's that's their paradigm. That's and there's nothing wrong with that necessarily. Sure. But the same is true in the legal business where if you have somebody who's really good at at doing family law, and they haven't done a lot of trust work, they might suggest maybe it's a living will as a as a first step, and then maybe there's a living trust or a revocable trust. And you have to really think about, while these are all tools, does that tool truly serve what you're trying to accomplish? For us, in a dynasty trust, we're looking at something that's irrevocable. We're looking at something that can never be changed.

Michael Kramer [00:36:09]:
Right.

Tyson Gaylord [00:36:09]:
And that

Michael Kramer [00:36:09]:
could be a little bit daunting. And so to have a guide, somebody who's gone down that path before and led other families to do similar work, is really, really important because not all doctors are equal, not all, you know, trust attorneys are equal, etcetera. And so to dig into that and I'm saying it to hear it because I've spent the last 3 or 4 years just interviewing different attorneys and looking at different kinds of trusts and figuring out what it is that we actually need to serve this 100 year plan.

Tyson Gaylord [00:36:38]:
What about for your folks' family constitution? What what are the frameworks you guys use for that? Is there something you can maybe share so people can start thinking about that?

Michael Kramer [00:36:45]:
Yeah. I would use the, framework that the 7 leg the 7 generation legacy, the one Okay. So there. Okay. She has, a website and Okay. I think it's even a list of questions, if I remember right

Tyson Gaylord [00:37:00]:
Okay.

Michael Kramer [00:37:01]:
That she guides you through, to ask and answer. So that's a really good place to start.

Tyson Gaylord [00:37:05]:
Perfect. And don't worry, folks, if you're driving or walking or whatever. I'll link to this in the show notes for you guys so you can easily get to those things. That's interesting to think about. I've heard of some, corporation stuff. I think it's I wanna say Mitsubishi or something. They have, like, a 300 year plan, and some other people have 500,000 year plans. So I'm I'm very fascinated by this this concept, and I've start been starting to think about this.

Tyson Gaylord [00:37:25]:
I'm like like you're saying, if you're not thinking and I and like you prefaced as well, it's hard if you're trying to put food on a table. It's hard to maybe start there, and then we work our way over. But I've been starting to think about this too. You know, if you're thinking so far ahead, it really changes your choices today.

Michael Kramer [00:37:42]:
Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. You're you're it becomes a filter, Tyson. Right. Like, it it's a really, really powerful when you have this perspective, it becomes a really powerful filter Mhmm. For things to say yes and no to. Right. And, interestingly, it's caused me to say no to almost everything.

Michael Kramer [00:38:03]:
Mhmm. Because the the the few things that I know are going to help facilitate where we're going is all we focus on. And so think about the power of that focus and the and the how it increases the probability of it actually coming to fruition. Right?

Tyson Gaylord [00:38:17]:
Right. But you you have rules and frameworks. You're like, I don't do this. I don't spend money on that.

Michael Kramer [00:38:22]:
It's easy to

Tyson Gaylord [00:38:23]:
make decisions.

Michael Kramer [00:38:24]:
That's it. No. That's right. And and, by the way, it doesn't feel like you're, when you say no to it, it doesn't feel like you're giving something up. Mhmm.

Tyson Gaylord [00:38:33]:
You rec

Michael Kramer [00:38:33]:
you recognize that it's not giving something up. It's actually it's actually helping you to stay focused on what you really want. Mhmm. Right? Don't treat what you want now for what you really want in the future, because a lot of times that that immediate gratification is at the expense of and I know it's it's easy to say, when you're when you're trying to do legacy planning and

Tyson Gaylord [00:38:54]:
Yeah.

Michael Kramer [00:38:55]:
Have that mindset. And and for those that are not there, you know, I have empathy because I like, I told you earlier on in this in this podcast, like, I saw the look on my mom's face when she didn't have $600, and she's got 10 kids. I mean, it's, we're in we're in the greatest place on the planet to be able to do what what I do and what anybody here can can do, whether it's through real estate or some other vehicle that builds wealth. But my goodness. What a great place to be, and what a great opportunity to to do it if you so choose.

Tyson Gaylord [00:39:27]:
Yeah. I mean, that's that's a common story in America, unfortunately, that people don't have somewhere between who you listen to between $46100 for an emergency.

Michael Kramer [00:39:35]:
Yep.

Tyson Gaylord [00:39:35]:
And and and it it it it does suck, and it is tragic. But I think if you're not there yet, listen, you know you're you're hearing us, and you you can start building that way. You've got this thought in your head now. These guys have done it. You know, Michael has built a massive legacy. You know, he's built this stuff. He's built wealth. He's from what it sounds like to me, you've helped your family.

Tyson Gaylord [00:39:58]:
You you brought all these people. You lifted them out of poverty. So you can be drinking tequila and eating Reese's peanut butter cups and and know, like, I know somebody else can do this. I can do this too. And you're just a testament to that. And and I know it's hard. And I was like, you know, yeah. Yeah.

Tyson Gaylord [00:40:11]:
Okay, you guys. You don't get it. I can't afford groceries. No. I listen. I get it. I lived in my car. I didn't I couldn't afford groceries either.

Tyson Gaylord [00:40:17]:
And I know what it takes to kinda get there, and it it it can be done. You know, just a little bit at a time, one day at a time. Have like you say, if you have that plan, you can start making these decisions, start making these choices, you know, throwing some change in a jar, whatever you gotta do to start changing that.

Michael Kramer [00:40:32]:
That's right. No. I love that because it is it isn't a you know, when you look at me now, you might say, man, what an overnight success. But to your point, it's all these little decisions along the way. It's it's every quarter that you see goes in the jar, to use your analogy. And pretty soon, you have a jar full of quarters that you can trade for something else. I think it's it's believing first that it's possible and then acting in faith. It's taking that that next doing the next right thing, taking that step in faith.

Michael Kramer [00:41:04]:
Because unless you take action, all of the the best ideas and all the plans are useless. Mhmm. And we gotta start somewhere. So the other piece I I would suggest as you're as you're talking about this that comes to mind is, and you asked some good questions about which books or resources because I think each of us need a guide along the way. Right? We need somebody who's willing to give us a hand up and help us. And one one of the one of my favorite sayings came from my, I'm a Husker football fan, so our our head our head football coach said this in a press conference in the last few weeks. He said never take advice from somebody you wouldn't trade places with.

Tyson Gaylord [00:41:46]:
Right.

Michael Kramer [00:41:47]:
And and never accept criticism from those you're not taking advice from. In other words, be very careful who you listen to. And I think so many people, especially those that are, struggling and not feeling inspired, oftentimes, they're listening to voices that they of people and taking advice from people that they would never want to trade places with. They never want to be like those people. And it could be, sadly, it could be your own parents.

Tyson Gaylord [00:42:15]:
Right.

Michael Kramer [00:42:15]:
You know? I love my mother to death, but my mother has poverty consciousness. My mother raised 10 kids and didn't have any money. So the advice I take from her is not advice on money. Mhmm. And she she I don't wanna trade places with her financially. Right. Right? So the the lesson there, I think, is to look at somebody who's done it before. Mhmm.

Michael Kramer [00:42:37]:
Find out what they did. And as Zig Ziglar says, if you wanna be successful, do what successful people do. So get yourself in the room, whether it's in a through a book, through a podcast, through going to some social event, or find it, you know, find a mentor. Or if you have capital or and you wanna invest in a coaching program or a mastermind or even invest in real estate, I mean, that's Tyson, that's what we do. Right. We bring families in to help other people to elevate themselves. And when they start to get some traction and they start to to pick up some momentum, then those steps just get bigger and more and more powerful, and it starts to compound. It's all about energy pointed in the right direction, but you gotta act.

Tyson Gaylord [00:43:20]:
Yeah. And and listen, if if things are free, folks, out there. There's there's the library. You can get library books on your phone if you have a library card on your computer. There's no obstacles to this stuff. If you guys remember, my previous guest, Ferro, he lived in in, in in New York City. He walked to the library from the ghetto. There's if you want it, there's things out there, guys.

Tyson Gaylord [00:43:42]:
This we have so much access to information. We need to access it. So don't don't think that the you know, you don't have money for Audible subscriptions or or books or things like that. If you don't at the moment, there's free options out there. And it's the thing to, like, I tell them, I'm like, I don't know if I wanna buy this book. I'm like, listen. This person spent 100 of 1,000 of dollars in years years of their life, so you can spend $23 for a book Right. That has everything in it.

Tyson Gaylord [00:44:04]:
That's the best investment you can ever make.

Michael Kramer [00:44:07]:
So don't think about those things as a waste. Well and you mentioned if you have a library card, you can get free books on your phone.

Tyson Gaylord [00:44:14]:
Mhmm. Do you

Michael Kramer [00:44:15]:
know what that do you remember what that app is called?

Tyson Gaylord [00:44:18]:
I'm I'm aware of Libby. I will link to it in the show notes for you guys. And as long as you you just link your library card, you can even there's a browser extension when you're on Amazon. It'll pop up and show you that the book you're looking at on Amazon is available at your public library and where where you can get it. So it's very, very simple. My wife loves Olivia app. She doesn't spend money on books. She just likes them on her phone.

Tyson Gaylord [00:44:38]:
I like Audible. You can get Audible books as well. Sometimes they're exclusive to Audible, so I have to buy them, or I like physical books, but those are options.

Michael Kramer [00:44:47]:
Yeah. And then there's one other I'd suggest that maybe you could link to the Yeah. In the show notes as well. It's called Overdrive.

Tyson Gaylord [00:44:54]:
Oh, Overdrive is great too. Yes. Yeah.

Michael Kramer [00:44:55]:
And if you're not scary, we used

Tyson Gaylord [00:44:56]:
to get that for free.

Michael Kramer [00:44:58]:
Okay. Yeah. Well, I think there is a free version of Overdrive because I've used it for free for years

Tyson Gaylord [00:45:03]:
Oh, perfect.

Michael Kramer [00:45:03]:
Until I, you know, got spoiled, and my wife bought me Audible for Christmas.

Tyson Gaylord [00:45:07]:
Yes. And

Michael Kramer [00:45:08]:
so now that's all I use. Yeah. But and and and I like how, going back to Zig Ziglar, he said, when you're in the car, it it should be Automobile University. A 100%. There's there's great music, which I love, and I'm I I get sucked into the radio, sports talk, and all that stuff. But if you have a 30 minute commute, that's a 30 minute class you could have every day, listening to some kind of a book that's either inspiring you or teaching you. And that that intellectual property, that's something that no one can take from you, no matter what your economic status is. And the knowledge, if it's applied, is super powerful.

Michael Kramer [00:45:42]:
And I I love, the the content that you're you're drawing out of me and and the conversation that we're having here because I think there's so much that can help people if they just reach out and grab it.

Tyson Gaylord [00:45:53]:
I'm sorry. And that was the hope of this conversation. Like I said, you know, I I've seen a couple of things in here. I was like, there's gotta be lessons in there, and I'm glad you've been able to not only share them graciously, but you did extract some good lessons there. You were in a dark place, which a lot of people use as an excuse, and I I don't know. It it's probably hard. I've never been there. I don't wanna I'm not casting judgment, but I'm letting you guys know there is a way out, and that's what I like.

Tyson Gaylord [00:46:15]:
I love hearing from

Michael Kramer [00:46:16]:
you. Yeah. For sure. For sure.

Tyson Gaylord [00:46:19]:
Speaking of that, so you said earlier, you were the number one operator. You had a franchise. Why leave? Why sell? That's like, you know, I got a solid job. What is I'm sure your friends and family were like, what is wrong with you? Why did you leave? I mean, you sold, actually, if I'm correct.

Michael Kramer [00:46:35]:
I did. It's kind of a funny story because I didn't plan to sell the business. I actually was the the business that I bought was a home repair and remodeling franchise, And the the model was an owner operator model, so more of a lifestyle business, which created a great lifestyle. But I wanted to be more of a hands off, sort of an executive model. You know, you think about McDonald's, for example. The guy that owns the franchise probably is not working in the store. He's probably, you know, owning several and running the business. That's what I aspire to, and so I hired a coach, really a good became a good friend of mine, and he helped teach me how to create an executive model for my little home repair business.

Michael Kramer [00:47:22]:
And at the end of this coaching program, it was a 3 year program, he gave me a free business valuation. So he said if you take this certificate and you give it to this business consultant, he'll value your business and tell you what it's worth so you can see if what we've done together has been valuable or not. So I was intrigued, and I called the business broker up, and I he was an attorney here in town. And he said, hey. Send me your financials, and then let's meet. So I go into his office, and we have a, you know, few pleasantries. And he says, hey. What do you think your business is worth? And I'm like, I have no idea.

Michael Kramer [00:47:59]:
And he said, well, just give me a number. Tell me what you think. So I threw out a number, and he said, Mike, I can sell your business for twice what you think it's worth. And I said, bullshit. There's no no way. You're not there's no chance you're gonna sell this for twice what it's worth. He slid a contract across the desk. I kid you not.

Michael Kramer [00:48:16]:
This is a true story. He had had it all filled out. He said, all you need to do is sign it, and I'll get it sold. Tyson, 90 90 days later, I'm in an attorney's office signed, like, on a one of the big conference room tables Mhmm. Lined with papers all the way around. I signed my name probably 40 or 50 times. I don't even know what I signed. And I walked out of there with one of those big checks.

Tyson Gaylord [00:48:39]:
Oh, yeah.

Michael Kramer [00:48:39]:
I had just sold my business. I went 1st place I went was to the bank and paid off my house, and I just was like, unbelievable experience. But I had no plans to sell it. And so I had I had no idea what I was gonna do. I had this this, nice payday and and huge blessing to my family, but I had no idea what I was gonna do. So it was sort of serendipitous that I sold it. It wasn't a strategic, you know, acquisition with somebody.

Tyson Gaylord [00:49:05]:
K.

Michael Kramer [00:49:06]:
But that operation that I sold was Omaha and Lincoln, and I ended up selling the other 2. I had one in South Dakota and a couple in Arizona. And I sold those locations to the people that managed because it just didn't make sense for me to keep, you know trying to keep my my home base was gone, so it didn't make sense to keep the rest of them. But, yeah, it was, it was not planned, but it was a huge blessing.

Tyson Gaylord [00:49:27]:
Are you familiar with Cody Sanchez? I am not. So, I'll I'll explain to everybody that you're not. So she's, I think she's great. She was a venture capitalist or something along the lines. She worked at a banking. She was a journalist. She did a bunch of things. She teaches, buying businesses.

Tyson Gaylord [00:49:45]:
I think the thing that is interesting about what you were talking about was how great of an opportunity for somebody that wants this lifestyle business to walk in and have a customer base, a track record, years years in businesses. Most businesses fail within 3 or 5 years. And here you go. You can walk in, you can buy this business. Maybe you don't have the money. There's different there's creative ways of doing things, seller financing. There's lots of things, SBA and stuff. Yeah.

Tyson Gaylord [00:50:08]:
I'll link to her if you guys are interested in this, But not only it's just about you sold and probably got a life changing amount of money, but also if you're interested in the entrepreneur life and you see a business that's already there, maybe you could walk and say, would you be interested in selling? Maybe people like you, like, I never thought about it. You know? And you could suddenly get yourself into I mean, maybe you're buying a job. Maybe you're not. Whatever it is, you can always change that and and do things, but there's opportunity there. And I and I love that, that concept, and I think that can free a lot of people into wealth.

Michael Kramer [00:50:37]:
It sure can. I I think you're you're spot on. So a typical SBA loan, that's done, at least when I sold, was what was called an 80 10 10. So they would loan 80% of the the purchase price. The seller would generally carry back 10%, and the borrower, the buyer, had to bring 10%. So, you know, a $1,000,000 business, you have to come up with a $100,000 in cash. Right? Now depending upon what it produces, that might be a great deal. If it's producing good revenue, it it could be a great deal because it services the debt, it services the seller carry, and it takes care of your equity because you get a return on it.

Michael Kramer [00:51:17]:
So you're absolutely right. The other piece of it that's really cool is if you buy an existing business, there's the the upfront risk of startup failure is greatly reduced when you have something that's a proven track record, and the SBA typically won't won't lend on something that doesn't have at least 3 years of tax returns.

Tyson Gaylord [00:51:36]:
Right.

Michael Kramer [00:51:36]:
And so while the majority of the business fail in the 1st year and it drops off precipitously after the, you know, a couple of years, and if you have 3 years of good tax returns, it really reduces the risk on buying something that's existing. So that's great advice.

Tyson Gaylord [00:51:49]:
Yeah. I'm constantly looking. I have alerts set up. I mean, folks, listen. You don't have to these businesses, 5, 10, 50, 25, $30,000. You can get vending machine businesses as you wanted. So maybe a little aside, I've seen them. Yep.

Tyson Gaylord [00:52:02]:
20, $30,000. These guys already have customers. They have machines. Yep.

Michael Kramer [00:52:06]:
All you

Tyson Gaylord [00:52:06]:
gotta do is service them. It's it it wouldn't take a lot if you're interested. I've also buy websites from people. Mhmm. There's things you can go that are already cash flowing. You go in there, you change a few things. You know, I've bought things for a $1,000, you know, and you come around and and it's got clients, it's got things. These are opportunities.

Tyson Gaylord [00:52:23]:
I I know real estate is a great thing and that's your area of expertise. We'll get into that a little bit later, but there's opportunities. You know, the thing I missed about I I early on in my life when I read Rich Dad Poor Dad, the thing that I missed I think the key lesson in is there, and I didn't learn from it. And I I and I look back and I noticed people don't teach this as well. The key thing I missed was you need income. You need a business or something like that. And so and and so many people, and I got caught up in this, was you just jump ahead to the real estate part.

Michael Kramer [00:52:52]:
Yeah. And

Tyson Gaylord [00:52:52]:
I didn't learn till I was a lot older, and actually I reread the book. I think the 20th anniversary, I reread it. I said, I missed the part about owning businesses and making money and being in that column before you can jump to the next column. So I think this is a way to get into that column. Well, maybe you still have a job or maybe you're unemployed or something's going on. Well, you can jump into that column. So then we can go talk to people like Michael and get into the investing column.

Michael Kramer [00:53:16]:
Well, I I love that advice, Tyson, because the what you're talking about in in Rich Dad Poor Dad is owning assets. Right. And by definition, an asset is something that pays you to own it. So think about what that could be. A vending machine. Mhmm. Simple. Very simple business.

Michael Kramer [00:53:35]:
If it pays you to own it, then it's an asset. Right. And so how do you buy more assets? Buying a rental house, of course, that's an asset. Buying a business, whether it's a service business, a lawn mowing business, it could be anything.

Tyson Gaylord [00:53:48]:
Yeah. If

Michael Kramer [00:53:49]:
it's if it's paying you to own it, now you've taken some of the pressure off of you having to trade your time for dollars. Mhmm. And the more you can can shift that energy away from trading time for dollars to owning more and more assets, the more time freedom you have, the more time freedom you have, typically, you enjoy yourself a little bit more because you can make more decisions. You have more liberty and autonomy. Right? And I think that's ultimately what we want for our us and for our loved ones is to have the ability to make decisions about what we want to do, when we want to do it, with who we want to do it. And if you don't have assets that are paying you, and you're stuck working for someone else, trading your time, even if you're making, you know, half a $1,000,000 a year, you're still giving your time for that for that money. And how do you ever get your time freedom, which is really the greatest commodity we have because it's a limited and and finite commodity? We this might be our last day, Tyson.

Tyson Gaylord [00:54:48]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

Michael Kramer [00:54:49]:
We we might be done. Mhmm. And if we are, I I will will have felt that I've lived a blessed life, and I'll feel fortunate. But there's others who are gonna say, if this is it, I wish I would have taken the risk and bought this asset. And, like, to your point, it doesn't need to start big. It can start small. And one domino tips, and then the next one does. And before you know it, you end up with 25 vending machines, and then you hire somebody to run the route for you.

Michael Kramer [00:55:14]:
You go find another business. You know? So I love the, entrepreneurial advice. I I of course, as an entrepreneur, I can't imagine doing something else. Yes. And there's risks and there's challenges, but, man, the upside is is so exciting.

Tyson Gaylord [00:55:28]:
But that's good there's risks. It's good there's challenges. Like you said, you failed and you learned Yes. And you got up, and that's part of success. It is. Everything everything in this world that you have, we hold now. Somebody failed making it until they were successfully making it, and that's why we have these things now.

Michael Kramer [00:55:47]:
Josh, what a great insight. That's so true. It doesn't always happen. You don't snap your fingers, and all of a sudden, it exists. There's many iterations along the way, and most of them are throw away until you get the one that works. Yeah. Great advice.

Tyson Gaylord [00:56:00]:
Correct me if I'm wrong. It seems like you took a little bit of a sabbatical after you sold, and then you started, you know, buying and starting and selling businesses. Is this how is that how that went down?

Michael Kramer [00:56:10]:
Yeah. So I, after I sold the the first five franchises, I bought and sold 2 other companies. 1 was a manufacturing company where I owned a minority share, ended up splitting the company in 2 and selling it to 2 separate parties. And then I bought and sold the signed company along the way.

Tyson Gaylord [00:56:27]:
What are some of the lessons, takeaways from from that process?

Michael Kramer [00:56:32]:
So I what's interesting, Tyson, is that every business has the same framework. It does not matter if it's a vending business that we've talked about or it's Coca Cola. Every one of those businesses and everything in between has the same framework, and it's a 7 part framework, which is leadership, who's gonna run it? Marketing, how do you tell customers that it exists? You get the best product in the world, nobody knows. You're out of business. You have a sales function. After they said they like it, how do you deliver it to or sell it to them? And you have fulfillment, which is the delivery of. And you have back office and accounting. You collect the money.

Michael Kramer [00:57:08]:
You have to find a way to account for it. Then you have HR or that's part of the excuse me. That's part of the back office. Then you have innovation, which is thinking about how do I grow and improve. And the last piece is customer service. Every single business has to address those seven critical functions in order to be successful. The business will scream at you either through lost sales or through increased sales, depending upon how well you pay attention to each of these things. So for example, if you you say, I've got this great product, and I don't wanna market it.

Michael Kramer [00:57:45]:
And maybe you do have the very best product. The number of people that are gonna be able to buy that product is very limited because nobody knows about it. Right? Right. Versus you start telling people, hey, I've got I've got this great product. And even if the the product, frankly, is average or marginal, if there's a great reach with your marketing, you're probably gonna sell the heck out of an average product. So those critical functions are key. And I think if you can learn the framework and learn that it is repeatable in every business and make sure that you're honoring each of those 7 critical functions, as a vending business, honor those 7 functions, you're gonna have a much more your odds of success increase greatly. You ignore some of those functions because, let's say, it's a side hustle and you don't mark it, or it's a side hustle and you don't go fill the machine, or it's a side hustle and you forget to collect the money, or it's a side hustle and you don't take care of it because from a maintenance standpoint, it breaks down and people get upset and they put a sign out of order on it.

Michael Kramer [00:58:42]:
I mean, all of these things have to be accounted for, and I think that's really where the root of the problem lies is people then have to trade their attention, their time Mhmm. To go take care of the side hustle. And so I tend to be, maybe wrongfully so, but I tend to be an all or nothing guy. If I'm gonna start something, I'm not gonna dabble in it because I don't want the risk of you know, my dad used to say a guy who hunts 2 rabbits goes hungry.

Tyson Gaylord [00:59:12]:
Right.

Michael Kramer [00:59:12]:
It's hard enough to shoot 1 rabbit. Right? But if you hunt 2 rabbits, you're gonna go hungry. So I tend to be pick the rabbit, hunt that thing down, kill it, eat it, and then they go find another rabbit. And so I tend to be all in, and and I'm I'm not a good side hustle guy. So, you know, if you wanna trade place with me, don't take my advice. Right? Or or if you do, then take my advice. But if you don't, then then don't. But, it is about the framework, and it's about the consistency of each of those businesses regardless if it's manufacturing or service or whatever.

Michael Kramer [00:59:41]:
They're all they all have the same functions.

Tyson Gaylord [00:59:43]:
Do you have a resource for this? How can we learn this framework and start to apply it if you were interested in business?

Michael Kramer [00:59:49]:
That's a framework that I created, and and I actually have a a visual, that I can share with people if somebody's interested. It's called the 7 part framework. If you wanna, I can share it with you, and you can link it in the notes or whatever is easiest.

Tyson Gaylord [01:00:03]:
That would be fantastic.

Michael Kramer [01:00:04]:
Yeah. There's actually 2. It's it's the framework is built like a a house. A visual is a house. Okay. Below grade, there's 2 other things that I didn't mention.

Tyson Gaylord [01:00:16]:
Okay.

Michael Kramer [01:00:16]:
1 is operating principles, which are how are you gonna govern yourself,

Tyson Gaylord [01:00:21]:
Mhmm.

Michael Kramer [01:00:21]:
And the the bedrock or the footings of what you're building are founded in your beliefs. How do you who are you as a person? What do you what do you stand for and stand against? And then on those, you you put your operating principles, and then on top of that is leadership, sales, marketing, etcetera. But I'm happy to share that frame my

Tyson Gaylord [01:00:40]:
frame will be That'd be great. And and, like, everything in life, your foundation, you you gotta build a solid foundation or your houses are gonna stand up.

Michael Kramer [01:00:47]:
That's it. Yep. That's it. And the the the beautiful thing too, Tyson, about that is that the beliefs and operating principles are transferable. Mhmm. They also go from one business to the next. The 7 part framework I mentioned is a little bit different for each business.

Tyson Gaylord [01:01:04]:
Mhmm.

Michael Kramer [01:01:04]:
But the the foundation, as you said, the operating principles, those are those are what you carry with you wherever you go. It's who you are and how you show up.

Tyson Gaylord [01:01:13]:
Yeah. I love this. What I'm thinking about when I when I hear this is if you learn this this framework, you can look at any business and say, oh, this 6 isn't working, 4 isn't doing very well. I can come in and I can switch, and I can get 6 and 4 working at things, and I can increase revenue, I can maybe decrease bottom line, whatever it is you can do. Now, you suddenly have a more profitable business or acquisition, whatever you're doing.

Michael Kramer [01:01:37]:
That's it. No. That's exactly right. It gives you the ability to to drill down on each of these seven critical functions and say, we're great or a a great example is the the leadership one, where you have a lot of people selling businesses that are not truly sellers. They're actually don't wanters. Mhmm. They've given up on the business. They're not leading anything.

Michael Kramer [01:02:01]:
And if all you did was step in and provide leadership, the rest of it would would run brilliantly. Mhmm. But how do you identify that unless you know that's part of a framework and you drill down on it? If you find a don't wanter, and he's got a great marketing team and a great sales team, and he's got all the operations going and accounting and everything's working, man, that that could be a gold mine because he's gonna sell it for pennies on the dollar because he's checked out or she's checked out. It doesn't matter. Right? They don't want it. I love the I love don't waners.

Tyson Gaylord [01:02:31]:
Yeah. Absolutely. And and sometimes you can come in and, you know, do it yourself. You could hire an amazing CEO or something along those lines, and and then boom, like you're saying, you can double, triple these businesses. Not necessarily literally, metaphorically overnight.

Michael Kramer [01:02:46]:
Yeah. No. I agree with you a 100%. It it's it's actually a great point too that you bring up, Tyson, which is know yourself. Right? If you're a great salesperson, then maybe you do step in and and handle the sales role. But then who's gonna do the accounting? Typically, I'm gonna say stereotypically, salespeople are not great accounting people Sure. And vice versa. You know? So know your strengths, know what you're good at, Fill those voids.

Michael Kramer [01:03:14]:
And you can outsource or do fractional, you know, accounting or different things to offset that and grow into having your own staff. But each function has to be addressed. If you ignore it, the business will scream at you and say, hey. We're out of money, or we don't have any sales, or we have no leads. Whatever it is. We gotta upset customers. Right? It will require you to pay attention to those functions whether you want to or not. It's just best to go into it knowing what they are and and be wide eyed and clear eyed about addressing them upfront.

Tyson Gaylord [01:03:44]:
We talked a lot about real estate. What it seems like everybody wants somehow or some way or another wants to get into real estate. What do you think is the biggest thing people are missing with that premise?

Michael Kramer [01:03:57]:
Well, I think it actually goes right back to what we were just talking about, which is when you buy a piece of real estate, very, very rarely is it passive. Mhmm. Meaning, if you're if you're let's say you had $50,000 and you're gonna buy a rental house. You you got an inheritance, and you're gonna buy your first rental. So you go to the bank. You get preapproved. You buy the house. You rent it out.

Michael Kramer [01:04:20]:
Well, now you've got an operating business. There's now 7 functions of that rental business that have to be managed.

Tyson Gaylord [01:04:27]:
Mhmm.

Michael Kramer [01:04:27]:
And what so few people recognize is that they do have to answer the phone. They do have to call or deal with maintenance. They do have to collect the rent or file an eviction. They they have to manage all of that, and it can end up being overwhelming for them. Right? So for those folks that aren't interested in doing active working on that 7 part framework and running a real estate portfolio, which having one property is still a real estate portfolio, by the way

Tyson Gaylord [01:04:56]:
Right.

Michael Kramer [01:04:57]:
Because it requires all the same functions. The bigger you get, the more demands. And you get to a point where if you're not at scale like, people typically get to 4, 5, or 6 houses, if that's what they're buying. And they say, no mas, because that's enough tenants and it's enough noise. It's enough operational, attention that it needs that their their wife starts to squeal or their husband says no more. You know, you gotta sell these assets or you you start missing kids' games or whatever it is. And it starts to stress the family to the point where you say it's not worth it. Because the truth is, the secret, Tyson, is that on a single family rental, you might you might cash flow a couple $100 a month, if you're lucky.

Michael Kramer [01:05:37]:
Yeah. It's not a get rich quick thing. It's not gonna replace your income quickly. It's more of an appreciation play, meaning the asset should go up over time if you buy right, and a depreciation play, which is a tax play.

Tyson Gaylord [01:05:50]:
Right.

Michael Kramer [01:05:50]:
And it is a cash flow play. And so a lot of people get confused and think, I'm gonna buy this asset, and it's gonna be great. And they realize that it's just a bunch of work. So for those that don't want to deal with all that work, a better option is to find somebody like us or another person who's already got the system and the machine built with all the processes, all the seven parts of the framework are addressed, and has a team. And invest your money alongside somebody like us that says, I'm gonna make money when you make money. Mhmm. And you go along for the ride, and you have the benefits of ownership, but you don't have the operational headaches of managing those seven critical functions. And you do that through a real estate syndication or investing in a fund, and and that's one good way to do it.

Michael Kramer [01:06:35]:
But then you have to have the capital. Right? Right. And and so the perfect person for us is somebody who's got good disposable income, high income earner, wants real estate, but is afraid to do it on their own because of the distraction of it, the the switching cost of taking their eye off the ball that's already producing to go try to spin up something else that they don't know anything about. Mhmm. That's really who we serve the best because they've got the capital. They're already, you know, successful somewhere else, and now we help them accelerate their growth by investing right alongside us. If the people wanna go hands on, I highly recommend that as a as an option if you have the the bandwidth and the appetite to go and do that work. Mhmm.

Michael Kramer [01:07:16]:
Because then you're gonna reap all the benefits instead of sharing it with me.

Tyson Gaylord [01:07:19]:
Right. Is that why you guys decided to do, like, a vertical integration?

Michael Kramer [01:07:23]:
It is. Absolutely. It is. Because we wanted to have control of construction, property management, the full life cycle of the asset. You hire a third party to do some of these things. Like, GCs are easy to find Mhmm. But they're hard to manage. Right.

Michael Kramer [01:07:40]:
The quality, the schedule, the pricing, the vendors, it's hard to manage. The subs, right, there's a lot there. The same when it comes to property management. A third party property manager who's especially when you're buying assets that need some work, they don't wanna they don't wanna deal with tenants who are frustrated that there's an extra dumpster in the parking lot, or there's trash blown across the yard, or there's noise because somebody's working on the property. They would rather have a turnkey asset where it's just collect rents, send out maintenance guys. Simple. When you're doing value add and there's a lot of work to be done, the third party managers don't have the the law I'm gonna say long suffering is the word that comes to mind because you have to tolerate a lot Yeah. Both as a tenant and as the third party manager.

Michael Kramer [01:08:32]:
And if you're if you don't have the upside, meaning you're not an owner in the deal, and you don't benefit from all of that hard work, then why would you do it for 6, 5, 6, 7 percent of the rent? Right. So that's why we are vertically integrated because we want to have owners at each level because there's a struggle at each level, and we don't win it just unless the deal is successful at the end. And so we're all our interests are fully aligned that way.

Tyson Gaylord [01:08:56]:
Yeah. Now that I think about it, it seems it's probably better for your bottom line as well because the margins are probably thin within each of these things. But when you combine them all together, you probably get a better net. Right?

Michael Kramer [01:09:08]:
No question. In fact, we for example, in our construction

Tyson Gaylord [01:09:12]:
Mhmm.

Michael Kramer [01:09:13]:
Our project management cost is 5%. That's over and above what the actual invoices are from the vendors and from the subcontractors. Most of the time in construction, if they're if they're using a construction management model, they're charging 10% overhead and 10% profit. So they're marking it up 20%. Right. We're marking it up 5% just to cover our cost of paying bills and managing the construction. So there's immediate savings that we can drive right into the project, which at the end is equity growth, which benefits us because we're partners on the deal and the investors, so they get all that upside with us. It's key.

Tyson Gaylord [01:09:52]:
Right. And then I doubt that would probably lead into, like, the you're talking about the, is it limitless income or something like that? So you you build this project for 10,000,000, let's just say, and then you get it appraised for 20. So now you cash out refi that. So you you paid off your initial 10. Now you got 10 infinite returns right there, you know, after that. Right?

Michael Kramer [01:10:12]:
Yeah. So let me give you a real example. We bought our our first large multifamily, and it's relatively large. It was 88 units.

Tyson Gaylord [01:10:23]:
Mhmm.

Michael Kramer [01:10:24]:
We've never done that before. We've done small we've done single family and small multifamily. 6, 8, 10, 12 unit buildings. The 88 unit was a little bit daunting, and so we we did not want to bring in any investor capital because we weren't sure we could pull it off. So we bought the building. It the day we bought it at a price for 4,000,000 Mhmm. We paid just under 3,000,000 for it. So we had day 1 equity of a $1,000,000, which was great.

Michael Kramer [01:10:51]:
The seller did a carryback, so I had a bank in first position. I had a seller doing a carryback, and then we had all this work to do to the property. We took our existing portfolio, brought it to the bank, and said, we'd like to leverage this for a line of credit, which they gave us a $1,000,000 line of credit just using the equity that we had in our portfolio. We used that $1,000,000 to put into the asset, so we bought it at 3. We put in a 1,000,000. So now our basis is at 4 it originally appraised it for. 2 years later, it appraised at 7. We got a we got a loan of a little over 5,000,000.

Michael Kramer [01:11:30]:
We owed 4. We paid off the first mortgage. We paid off the line of credit and the seller carry, and we walked away at the time of closing with over $1,000,000. And we still own the asset. So we have none of our own money in in into this deal. Mhmm. It pays us about $15,000 a month in free cash flow after all expenses. Mhmm.

Michael Kramer [01:11:51]:
And the tenants are paying off the mortgage.

Tyson Gaylord [01:11:54]:
Right.

Michael Kramer [01:11:54]:
That's an infinite return. Yes. That's a life changing event. That's the that's the kind of deals that we said once that was a light bulb moment for me where I said, we can help a lot of families do the same thing. We don't we have limited capital. We don't have the ability to buy multiple 100 unit buildings. But if I get investor help, we can rinse and repeat that same process over and over again and provide those same returns to our investors. It's a win for both of us.

Michael Kramer [01:12:22]:
We get to build our portfolio. The investors our our base model is to double their money in a 5 year hold or less. So if you can double your money in that period of time, that's a 20% return annually. It's pretty it's a pretty incredible process.

Tyson Gaylord [01:12:36]:
And that's better than the average stock market doubling above every 7 years or so. So that's pretty that is pretty good. Yep. What about oh, go ahead.

Michael Kramer [01:12:46]:
I was just gonna say there are risks associated. Right? You gotta make sure the property is good. You gotta make sure the operator is good. Right. So it's not all a bed of roses. But if you find the right deal and you're disciplined in what you buy and you have someone, an operator that's got a proven track record, it can be a very, very powerful investment strategy to grow your wealth.

Tyson Gaylord [01:13:04]:
Yeah. Definitely. I mean, do your homework, find great people, and then once you've got that team in place, these things can start compounding.

Michael Kramer [01:13:11]:
That's right. No. That's right.

Tyson Gaylord [01:13:15]:
What about maybe, on on a small scale? Maybe somebody's like, you know, maybe I maybe I'm gonna get a duplex or a quadplex or something. I'll live in some is what do you think about something like that?

Michael Kramer [01:13:26]:
I think it's great as long as they're willing to be active.

Tyson Gaylord [01:13:29]:
Okay.

Michael Kramer [01:13:30]:
Right? It comes back to, are you gonna you gonna honor the 7 functions of the business? Because the business is merciless. It will require you to honor those things. And as long as you go into it wide eyed and and clear eyed and say, yeah. I'm I'm okay with that, then a house hack, for example, is a great way to start for sure.

Tyson Gaylord [01:13:48]:
Yeah. That's interesting. I I hear a lot of people doing that. I don't think I could I could do it. Stop. I I'd rather like you I'd rather jump in a deal and and buy a whole apartment building than than have to worry about my neighbor messing up things. Well, the

Michael Kramer [01:14:00]:
the other piece about the the larger deals, Tyson, is there's such efficiency Mhmm. In a you you know, when you when you have 50 units to renovate

Tyson Gaylord [01:14:10]:
Right.

Michael Kramer [01:14:10]:
You you have almost no switching costs for the guys, the crews. They're going in, and they're doing the same thing in each one. The the extra flooring or extra paint or hardware just rolls to the next one. So you have a lot less waste.

Tyson Gaylord [01:14:25]:
You

Michael Kramer [01:14:25]:
have the same floor plan, typically, or a couple of floor plans, and they just get really efficient and really good at it. It's not sexy. It's it's actually boring. But the returns are so much better when you can be really efficient than they are on a one off single family, you know, or a duplex, or even a 3 or 4. It's the the efficiencies of scale are real in these larger multifamily, and that's what's what's exciting about really building wealth. You can do it one off, and we have. We have 200 some single families. So I'm not a I'm a proponent of that for sure.

Michael Kramer [01:15:02]:
It's just compared to the efficiency and scale that you get on a multifamily, it's it's just way easier and much more efficient to do a multifamily. It takes more money, and it takes a team. It's it's almost impossible to do it yourself. In fact, I don't know if it is possible to do it yourself. But if you're if you're comfortable with it, then I think it those those downsides, and I think it's a better way to go.

Tyson Gaylord [01:15:27]:
I I prefer, I think, the the less sexy things, not trying to make an app and some moonshot or some startup. It's great if that's your dream or your ambition. I say, hey, if you want to go for it, go for it. But I think a lot of people, I think, especially as we've gone on in our economic prosperity in America, the less sexy things kind of fall to the wayside, the blue collar, those things where there's so much money there. There's so much wealth in welding, in having a plumbing company, in doing

Michael Kramer [01:15:55]:
these things.

Tyson Gaylord [01:15:56]:
People, you know, are, you know, they're really missing out on, like you're saying, building this generation of wealth, building a family business like you've built. There there's so much wealth in the unsexy.

Michael Kramer [01:16:08]:
There is. And we want our business to be boring because I want my kids to be able to understand it, and I want them to be able to be good at it, and I don't want it to be super complex. Like, how does it endure if it's really complex? Right. Right? I think the simpler it can be, the more sustainable it can be. And so, you know, in in real estate has been, and I would guess will be, you know, maybe AI would change this. I don't know. But the number one wealth creating tool on the planet. And it's it's like, I think the difference would be AI will probably have a few people that'll get crazy rich, and the rest of us will use it, where real estate is just more accessible to the common man to be able to create wealth.

Tyson Gaylord [01:16:51]:
Right. Because, I mean, we all we all every place around the world, they need buildings. They need they need places to live and stuff like that. Yeah. I I do think there probably would be a couple of 1 person $1,000,000,000 companies from AI. That's probably something that definitely is gonna happen. But I would agree. Like you're saying, generational wealth for 1000 of years now, and this is how people have preserved wealth, stored wealth, you know, and and all these different types of avenues is through real estate or some type of property, land, and things.

Michael Kramer [01:17:19]:
That's right. Yeah. No. That's right.

Tyson Gaylord [01:17:21]:
And it's probably just gonna get more valuable as it becomes less and less available as well. Right?

Michael Kramer [01:17:26]:
Well, they do in my lifetime, and and I would ask you, have you seen the price of labor and materials go down?

Tyson Gaylord [01:17:33]:
Not typically. Especially in the past, 4 or 5 years, it's not been a a smooth ride.

Michael Kramer [01:17:38]:
Yeah. And and so the the what we're buying is existing properties at less than replacement cost. For example, we're closing tomorrow on a 30 unit building that we're buying at $70,000 per unit. Mhmm. Today, to rebuild that, it's a $150,000 per unit minimum. Wow. It's incredible. Like, how do you and they've and the rents, by the way, on the $70,000 a unit building are about 20% less than the rents on the 150,000 per unit building.

Michael Kramer [01:18:10]:
So do the math. Yeah. It'd be sexier to have a brand new building and get a, you know, a 20% bump in rents. Mhmm. But I can renovate these units and get almost the same rents at half the cost of the property.

Tyson Gaylord [01:18:24]:
Yeah. And then at 1 50 unit, I would imagine that's like builder basics probably versus the $70,000 units. You could put a little bit more luxury floors or counters or something, and then you

Michael Kramer [01:18:33]:
can bump your rent. Absolutely. We do we we call it our HGTV standard. So it's

Tyson Gaylord [01:18:39]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Kramer [01:18:39]:
It's granite countertops, soft close cabinets, LVP flooring. All the fixtures are new. Electrical fixtures are new. The walls are gray. The the trim is white. It's the same in all of them. Again, it's not sexy. But when somebody walks in there and they see everything is new, especially when with like, I don't know if it's this way where you're at, but in Omaha, all of the the new construction is on one part of town in in one part of town.

Michael Kramer [01:19:04]:
And if you don't work out there, you have a long commute to get to where you work. And so we're buying in town where the workforce wants to live. Mhmm. And we're we're repurposing these buildings, leveling up that that property to make them nice so it's still affordable and it's close to work, rather than sending them out, you know, for a 30 minute commute one way to the edge of town where they don't know anybody. Their community isn't there. Their their neighborhood that they leave is they have to start over, basically. It's just not what we do, and so we really like the existing properties and improving them where they're at.

Tyson Gaylord [01:19:40]:
Yeah. Here in Arizona, the Phoenix area, we have a probably a bit of mix of that. I noticed downtown, they're tearing down a lot of the old the houses and stuff that have kinda left their way, and they're building high rises there. There's a lot of land. It's kinda spread out. There's some communities, like you're saying, you're talking 45 minutes an hour in some of these places. There's just one little road into this community.

Michael Kramer [01:20:02]:
And, I

Tyson Gaylord [01:20:02]:
mean, the traffic, it's unreal. But yeah. That's I I I like your strategy there. I like how you're thinking, the forethought of, like, you know, yeah. We can go where it's fun and sexy outside of town. Maybe the costs are a little lower. The the buildings are a little cheaper. But you could your demographic might be different.

Tyson Gaylord [01:20:19]:
You know what I mean? People are not, like you're saying, not willing to move too far out of out of you know, away from town and stuff like that. So that's interesting.

Michael Kramer [01:20:26]:
Yeah. The the urban center where we're at is where all the jobs are. And so the commute from, in our case, West Omaha to Midtown and Downtown

Tyson Gaylord [01:20:35]:
Mhmm.

Michael Kramer [01:20:36]:
Is brutal in the morning and in the evening. So a lot of people are just wanting to to live there, live in Midtown. There's a lot of amenities. There's a lot of you know, the university is is there. All the, you know, the the civic arenas and things where there's entertainment and and concerts and sporting events. There's a there's a population of people that prefer to live closer to where they work and to where the entertainment is. Now there's a there's a population that wants to live in the suburbs too. I think those are the ones that end up buying the houses because they're starting a family.

Michael Kramer [01:21:07]:
Right? And that makes sense. But for those that are not yet starting a family or or have a family and want them to be in the more urban area, that's the community we serve.

Tyson Gaylord [01:21:17]:
It'd be interesting. I'd like to go back to, tactical empathy. Could we talk a little bit about that? Of course.

Michael Kramer [01:21:24]:
Yeah. Are you are you talking about, like, the the utilitarian feel of that word? Are you talking about what does it mean?

Tyson Gaylord [01:21:31]:
However you however you wanna explain it. What does it mean to you? I'm familiar with it, but if you could enlighten the audience how you think about it, how maybe you use it.

Michael Kramer [01:21:39]:
Yeah. Yeah. So it's funny because when I first heard tactical empathy, it was sort of on the end of my journey of being really utilitarian in my view of others. Mhmm. Meaning, can you help me? And if you can't, I'm interested in you. And if you can't, get out of my way. Mhmm. So as I picked this tactical empathy this book up talking about tactical empathy, I was like, oh, this is interesting.

Michael Kramer [01:22:02]:
I bet I can probably use this to get more of an advantage. And, what I what I quickly realized is I couldn't have been more wrong in in, my view of of how it worked. Tactical empathy is really a set of tools that, when used appropriately, are the most respectful and honoring way to communicate with somebody else. I liken it to, like, learning to play the piano, the tools of of mirroring and labeling and summarizing and know oriented questions, which are some of the tools that are made up or that make up tactical empathy, are like the chords on a piano. You know, you play one. It sounds pretty good. You play another one next to it, and and they go together. It starts to make music.

Michael Kramer [01:22:45]:
And I think that's how the tactical empathy works, where you end up drawing people out, and you you get what Chris would call black swans or the things that that they normally wouldn't wanna say. But because they're comfortable, they feel like there's trust and there's empathy, that they're willing to share information. And, by the way, that's a two way street. Mhmm. It isn't just I'm manipulating someone to draw them out. It's I'm sharing too. Just like our conversation has been, frankly. It's it's been very much of a give and take, and I think that's how the tactical empathy works.

Michael Kramer [01:23:17]:
Once you reach a place where there's comfort and you get to what Chris would call that's right, that's when collaboration starts. Mhmm. That's when people start working on the problems together. And the beauty of that, Tyson, is that if you work on a problem together, you're you're both bought into the solution that you arrive at, and the odds of implementing the solution go way up because both parties have bought into the solution. A lot of times people say yes just to get you to shut up, and then they never implement what they said yes to. That's that's because you've convinced them to do something they didn't wanna do. Tactical empathy allows you to work together and collaborate, get on the same side of the issue instead of facing each other arguing over it. And when you can get on the same side of the issue, it allows you again to to agree on the solution and then implement it together.

Michael Kramer [01:24:12]:
It's really powerful.

Tyson Gaylord [01:24:13]:
It is. Learning those concept, you really you've got to in a way, you've got to retrain how you talk and how you speak. It's very interesting. I love it. I'm glad I was able to introduce my son and stuff to him when he was younger. So I'm hoping some of those natural habits we have of getting people to say yes all the time and just kind of persuading and pushing people to do what we want. Hopefully, he doesn't learn any of those like like I think we did. What is your favorite of of them and maybe some examples on how you use it?

Michael Kramer [01:24:44]:
Yeah. So, the most powerful well, gosh. They're all so powerful. I I'd say that the the no oriented question is probably the simplest for people.

Tyson Gaylord [01:24:55]:
Mhmm.

Michael Kramer [01:24:56]:
That's right. You can ask any question and have it be a no oriented question.

Tyson Gaylord [01:25:01]:
Mhmm.

Michael Kramer [01:25:02]:
Like, for example, when you call somebody and you say, do you have a second? Mhmm. Another way of saying it is, have I interrupted you? Mhmm. You're asking the same thing, which is, do you have a minute from for me? Right. But when you say, have I interrupted you? The no answer, which makes them feel safe Mhmm. Is actually the affirmative answer that you're looking for. So it makes it easier to get the affirmative answer you're looking for than it is to say, are you busy? Right. If you say, are you busy? They're like, well, I don't know. What do you want?

Tyson Gaylord [01:25:39]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Kramer [01:25:40]:
Like, do I need to be busy, or do I need to not? You know, like, what's going on? Mhmm. And so that's a very simple example of the power of a no oriented question, and we use those all the time. We call it going for no, or I think we learned that from Chris. Mhmm. I think the probably the the most powerful is sort of this this you've used the mirrors, which is repeating the last one to three words, and you've you've that's intended to just have them respond a second time a new way. Mhmm. Or you use in which you've used several really good labels, it seems like, it sounds like. Yeah.

Michael Kramer [01:26:18]:
That's intended to draw out, you know, more even if you're wrong. Right? And I think that's one of the fears people have in using them is, well, what if I say it seems like it seems like you're really upset, and they say, I'm not upset. I'm I'm just fine. Well, that's okay because they just corrected you, and now you're you're you misread them. And because you now can read them appropriately, it's gonna serve the conversation better. Right? So it's not a bad thing to get corrected.

Tyson Gaylord [01:26:43]:
Right.

Michael Kramer [01:26:44]:
But I think the most powerful for for getting to collaboration is a summary. And a summary is is risky because a lot of times when people are summarizing what someone else is saying, if they do it well, they they are fearful that that might come across as I'm agreeing with you even if I don't. Mhmm. So you could have somebody that you're you're adamantly disagreeing with. And if you summarize what they've said, the fear could be, well, if I say that, they're gonna think they're right and I'm agreeing. It's the the exact opposite happens. You can disagree with somebody vehemently, but if you can summarize what they've said and they say, that's right, what happens in that moment is they've they've somehow, in their mind, said, Mike gets me. Mhmm.

Michael Kramer [01:27:40]:
Tyson understands who I am and what I'm about. And it's at that moment where their guard drops, and then the real conversation can start. Where most people fail is they use terms like you should, you need to, why aren't you, why don't you, And they're they're trying to, you know, interrupt so they can, you know, get off of their mind what they have on their mind because they don't wanna forget. They gotta win their win the argument. And if you can get comfortable living in this space of asking questions, allowing the conversation to go where it needs to go, and get to that thin place of that's right, then you can start working together on the solution. That's a very, very, very powerful dynamic that most often time, that I've found, yields results that are better than I even anticipated going in. Again, one of my favorite things that Chris says, never expect never be so sure of what you want. Never be so sure of what you want that you wouldn't accept something better.

Tyson Gaylord [01:28:42]:
Mhmm.

Michael Kramer [01:28:43]:
Which in these kinds of collaborative conversations, I'm shocked at the number of times the outcome is better than I expected just because of the way we handled the conversation. And so it it makes you a better dad. It makes you a better husband. It makes you a better business partner. It makes you a better negotiator. It it makes you a better human being. Yes. And one of my greatest joys, Tyson, is when I hear my own kids talking to each other using these tools.

Michael Kramer [01:29:10]:
They hated it to start with because they know I read a book, and they knew I was practicing, and they could hear me missing these cords. I'd screw it up. Like, oh, that sounds terrible, dad. Don't do that. Don't don't never split the difference with me. Now they're doing it with each other, and and the reason it works is because it's so respectful. It truly does honor the other person. And man, that what a gift that Chris has given the world through this book, and what a gift it's been for me to share it with my family and with with those I care about.

Michael Kramer [01:29:39]:
It's been amazing.

Tyson Gaylord [01:29:41]:
Michael, that's right. Another another one, I don't remember if it was in the book or if it's in his master class or something, is switching why and what. So instead of excuse accusing somebody, why did you do that? And say, what was the reason you did that? Or something along those lines. Right? That one, if you just and to me, it makes me have to pause because, of course, I think the way we just are taught to talk or something, it's like, why are you doing that? Yeah. You've gotta stop yourself. Just ask about a second and say, how do I switch this to a what question? That is a huge thing. You you really disarm people a lot when you say you're accusing somebody. Why did you spill the milk? And saying, what happened? You know, is everything okay? Why you know?

Michael Kramer [01:30:23]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's super powerful, dude. I'm the the it's called the calibrated question.

Tyson Gaylord [01:30:33]:
Yeah. There you go. Yeah.

Michael Kramer [01:30:34]:
So it's what and how questions instead of why. How am I supposed to do that, or, you know, what are you take me back to when you made this decision, what was going through your head, You know, those sorts of things. The the the interesting thing is is that the why question is actually very, very powerful as well Mhmm. When it's used in the appropriate place. Right. Meaning, instead of saying, why did you do that? You're using it in a way of saying in in not in a confrontational situation. But let's say you're you're making a buying decision. Mhmm.

Michael Kramer [01:31:12]:
And I'm I'm selling you something, and you're gonna take something back to your team. And we're reaching an agreement, and I asked the why question of, tell me, when your team asks you about this solution, why would you recommend that you go forward with this? What are you gonna tell your team? Mhmm. And now that it's turned into them selling themselves and selling you on their reasoning for deciding to go with you. So why is appropriate if it's used in that context? Because then it's cementing in their mind their reasoning, and it's gonna then help you actually shape that conversation for them and with them. You can go back to the team. Say, well, what if it sounds like this is what you're you're proposing as the main benefits. What if you added this? Do you think that would be helpful? You see how it's very collaborative in that moment. Right?

Tyson Gaylord [01:32:04]:
Yes. Yes. Right.

Michael Kramer [01:32:05]:
It's it's it's super respectful, and it's also drawing out what's really in the mind of the other person so that when they do go deliver that message to the to the team that's gonna make the decision, you know what they're gonna say. Mhmm. And that that goes back to yes means nothing without how. Right? If he said, yeah. I'm in. I gotta go convince the team. Well, how are you gonna do that? Right? Why would you con why would you take this back to your team and tell them to do this? Why why is this good for you guys? That's a powerful why question. Not why are you doing this.

Michael Kramer [01:32:38]:
Right? It's that that's a defensive the the defenses go up. Right. And that's

Tyson Gaylord [01:32:43]:
where the

Michael Kramer [01:32:43]:
Yeah. The accusatory. Yep. Yep. If you study this stuff, dude, you're you're good.

Tyson Gaylord [01:32:49]:
I I I love it. Yeah. Because, like like we're talking about here, you know, not only do you you pull out, like, reasons and objections, I I believe it was in his book where he's talking about that piece of land that they wanted to build, like, a strip mall on, and the guy everybody and their mom came to this guy and he didn't wanna sell. Nobody could figure out why. And then the the person that wound up doing is like, you know, what's going on? I I want something to leave my grandkids. I want a legacy. And they're like, how about you name them all after you? He's like, okay. Sole deal.

Tyson Gaylord [01:33:14]:
Yeah. That was that was it.

Michael Kramer [01:33:16]:
Yeah. But

Tyson Gaylord [01:33:17]:
when you're listening and you're you're understanding, like, what is going on here? What you know, why do you have an objection? What is happening? When you bring that person to your side, right, and you're you're allowing them to speak and let their guard down a bit, open up to you, and you can start to uncover the obstacles, you get the deal done. And it wasn't necessarily I'm not talking about being selfish. We're not talking about anything like that. It's a collaborative thing, and everybody it's beyond win win because that's not what we're about. Right? Win win is something is probably given up in the middle there.

Michael Kramer [01:33:46]:
Well, it it it goes back to, I think, how they feel. Mhmm. Because if they feel heard and understood and they feel like you get me, like, you understand me Mhmm. The odds of of getting a deal done, if there's one to be had Mhmm. Goes way up. I like to talk when I'm talking to the guys that are that do our acquisitions, I say that the the Black Swan tools, the Never Split the Difference tools, are not a guarantee of success. They will never ever if you use them, they will never guarantee your success, but they give you the best odds of success. And I promise you, if you don't use them, you're not giving yourself the best odds.

Michael Kramer [01:34:30]:
So use the tools and give yourself the best odds of success, and success may not be a deal. A success may be we walk away from a deal because we found a black swan that would have, had we found later, ruined the deal to begin with. Mhmm. So never be so wet of to what no. Never be so sure of what you want that you wouldn't accept something better. Sometimes a no is a better answer than when you walked in the room saying, I'm I have to buy this or this I'm gonna win this deal because you might under uncover something through this collaborative approach that says, this isn't right for me. And that's okay too. Actually, it's better because now you can go focus on something that is a win.

Tyson Gaylord [01:35:11]:
I'm a huge fan of Chris. What was it like when you were able to connect with him? How did that come about? What was it like?

Michael Kramer [01:35:17]:
You know, he is he he would have this conversation as if you and I are. He's very approachable. He practices what he preaches. He's, very sincere. He asks the no earning questions. He mirrors and labels. It's, you're sitting in a master class when you have a conversation with him, and he's he's a delight to be around. The way it came about was sort of serendipitous.

Michael Kramer [01:35:44]:
I, I think just because I was a super consumer of his content and subscribed to everything he ever put out, I got an email one day from somebody that represents him, one of his agents or his agent. I don't know if it's one of. And said, hey. He's writing a book. Would you have any interest in submitting a story? And if we like the story, then you might get in the book. So I submitted a story. They came back and said, we like it. We wanna give you a ghostwriter and an editor so that it sounds better.

Michael Kramer [01:36:14]:
Right? Because you're not an author.

Tyson Gaylord [01:36:16]:
Right.

Michael Kramer [01:36:16]:
So they did, and and they made the stories better, easier to read, and, you know, more digestible, and not so many grammatical errors. And when they presented it, it ended up making the cut, and so I ended up being one of the contributing authors, which is a huge honor.

Tyson Gaylord [01:36:31]:
I bet. What what has that whole experience, have we taught you or brought you from from all of that? From from the the writing the book?

Michael Kramer [01:36:40]:
Yeah. So for me, that that that is a way to give back, honestly. It was a way just to say thank you to Chris, and, he he gets all the credit for the book and all of the stories that are shared in the book. Everything is is to honor what he's doing. He's changing the world if people will take what he's doing and and apply it, it's it's noble. And so to be able to give back, that's really my only purpose. It's open doors to have great conversations with people like you and others that have been just amazing to me to expand, you know, the people I know and can connect with. I met a lot of great people.

Michael Kramer [01:37:19]:
So it's been all all positive. It's been all great.

Tyson Gaylord [01:37:23]:
And the book is empathetic leadership, how to build trust and drive results. I'll link that for you guys. And I'll link to Chris's stuff if you guys are interested in learning more and and getting into these different things. We also have Free by Real Estate. I love the name. There's tons of resources there if you're interested, if you guys qualify to get into some to some of your deals and stuff. We've got LinkedIn and Facebook. Anything else you wanna point people to?

Michael Kramer [01:37:46]:
I don't think so. I think if you can share those things, that'd be great, Tyson. And just free by real estate website is the best way.

Tyson Gaylord [01:37:52]:
And then like I said, folks, everything will be in the show notes, everything we talk about, links to all Microsoft. If you wanna get in, you wanna learn more, there's a your guys' website's great. There's it really walks you guys through everything, lays everything out quite well. Thank you. One thing I love to do on the social community show is I like to have a weekly challenge, whether it's implementing an idea we talked about or concept or maybe not nothing at all. But I'd like to have you issue this week's challenge. Interesting.

Michael Kramer [01:38:18]:
You didn't prep me for this. No. Okay. So one of the most transformational things that I've ever done, is what I'm gonna challenge the listeners to do. And that is to instead of running your life through Kronos time, meaning I get up at 6, I go to the gym at 7, I eat breakfast at 8, I go to work at 9, I take lunch at noon, I go home at 5, I get Friday and Saturday I get Saturday and Sunday off, I go back on Monday, I get 2 weeks off in the summer or for vacation. I want you to in in this idea of having to earn time off. Right? Like, we work hard so that we get time off. I wanna challenge that thinking and ask that you shift it to kairos time.

Michael Kramer [01:39:12]:
Kairos time has more to do with, it's time to go to bed. I'm tired. It's time to eat because I'm hungry. It's time to have the baby. It's time to harvest. There is no there's no place on the clock for it, but it's what what needs to happen now. It's the most important thing that can happen now. So with that context, I want I want each of the listeners to say, every day, I'm going to start filling my bucket first.

Michael Kramer [01:39:41]:
Sounds selfish, but the truth is, if you're going to show up and serve and be of value to those that you interact with, you have to be fully charged because people are going to dip into your bucket, and they're going to take out of it. And if it's not full, you've got nothing to give. So be selfish. Take care of yourself first. I do what I call the hour of power. So every day in the morning for 1 hour, I don't do anything unless it's serving me. Drinking water, exercising, reading, studying something. And then when I show up, I can give my full self to the day and to those that need me.

Michael Kramer [01:40:14]:
And that's my challenge for everyone on this, podcast is to fill your bucket first, make sure you're prioritizing yourself, focusing on Kronos instead of Kairos so that you're not feeling like you have to earn everything, but that you're fully charged to give what you can. That would be what I would hope people can do.

Tyson Gaylord [01:40:32]:
Michael, thank you. That was beautiful. I love that concept. I feel like it's a it's it feels so natural. Like, the natural rhythmic you wake with the sun. You do your thing. You Yep. Siesta.

Tyson Gaylord [01:40:43]:
You go to sleep, and and you work the fields or whatever, you know, metaphorically. That's beautiful. Yep.

Michael Kramer [01:40:49]:
Yep. Well, I think, ultimately, the the system of Kairos serves the entrepreneur

Tyson Gaylord [01:40:57]:
Mhmm.

Michael Kramer [01:40:57]:
Way better than Kronos. We live in a world that is Kronos. Right? We have these schedules, and that's okay. But it doesn't energize and excite most entrepreneurs. Right? Most of us have have seasons of we're we're feeling creative or seasons of we've got our head down and we're grinding, and that's that's all good. It's just being able to honor that and not feel the conflict between the 2 can liberate a lot of folks. So I hope that's what that does.

Tyson Gaylord [01:41:24]:
Michael, thank you so much. This has been a beautiful conversation. You've been so vulnerable. I think inspiring to folks out there that may be in a dark place right now or just getting out of 1, your story, everything that's going on, the the help, you know, you went from, like you said earlier, being selfish, this is for me, and I'm gonna take all the money and f everything else to giving and being a light for people. I love it. Thank you so much for this beautiful lightning conversation.

Michael Kramer [01:41:49]:
You've done a great job guiding the conversation and asking great questions. I've enjoyed every bit of it. Thank you, Tyson.

Tyson Gaylord [01:41:54]:
All right. Wow. What a great powerful interview. I love the vulnerability of this. I said this several times in the conversation. It's just so great. And then being willing to share, you know, all these stories, the the seven frameworks, what a complete honor to have all that. As you folks know, there's no paywall.

Tyson Gaylord [01:42:13]:
There's no premium content to subscribe to here at The Social Community Show. We give everything up front and only ask if you found value from this episode. I'd love it if you shared it with these 2 other people. You guys can connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, or your favorite podcast app. Repisodes and links to everything we discuss here today. You can head over to the socialchameleon.show. And until next time, keep learning, growing, and transforming into the person you wanna become.